Reticle slightly canted

[efm77]

I noticed when I was mounting a new scope the other day that after leveling the elevation turret that the reticle is slightly off square with the turrets. It's not much but it is noticeable. I've read a lot about this happening and it appears it's pretty common. I thought about sending it back but no worse than it is they would probably say it's with in their specs. And if they replaced it the next one would likely be off a little too. I got to looking and some of my others are this way too. I must admit that I've never looked this closely before. I always just assumed (you know what happens when you do that) that since I kept the rifle level during mounting, and got the turrets level that all was good. So my question is which is better: turning the scope so that the reticle is level or turning it so that the elevation turret is level? Does it depend on how you're going to use it? If you're going to be dialing for elevation have the turret level? And if you're going to sight it in and leave it there, level the reticle? Thanks for any input/advice.

[big honkin jeep]

Having the reticle level is the important part of a properly mounted optic. If the reticle is canted it will lead to problems down range and corrections using the turrets will not hold true at different ranges. If not level the longer the range the further off target you'll be and corrections will take both knobs instead of just the elevation. This is because the bullet should ( in no wind) travel in an arc to the target along the vertical crosshair. If the reticle is not level it wont. The turrets can be nearly any way you wish as long as the recticle is level.

[tt123]

Just curious, but what make and model was the scope?

[seanhagerty]

I agree with the reticle being the important part for level. The best way I have found to true the reticle to the action is to set the action up with some type of clamp, then level the action. Once this is true and steady, lay the scope in the mount and focus on a weighted string you have hanging downrange. Align the vertical crosshair of the scope to the string and tighten it down. Make sure to recheck once everything is tight, things have been known to shift with a bit of torque application.

Sean

[efm77]

Here'e how I do mine. I level the action in a gun vise with a line level across the scope rail. Then when I get the scope mounted in the rings I line up the vertical wire with a plumb line. Before that I use to put another line level on the elevation turret. I'm constantly watching the level and reticle as I'm tightening the rings to keep it level.

@ big honkin jeep: Are you sure about the turret situation? I read somewhere that if the elevation turret isn't in line with the vertical wire and you have the reticle level then when you make elevation adjustments it's going to make slight windage adjustments too. ie, the turret isn't exactly vertical so it's pushing the erector slightly to one side or the other at the same time it's moving up and down. In other words, if the turret is slightly tilted to the right of being level, when you adjust up and down it will move the cross hairs slightly left and right too.

tt123: It's a Swift Premier SRP 8-32x50.

[big honkin jeep]

Here'e how I do mine. I level the action in a gun vise with a line level across the scope rail. Then when I get the scope mounted in the rings I line up the vertical wire with a plumb line. Before that I use to put another line level on the elevation turret. I'm constantly watching the level and reticle as I'm tightening the rings to keep it level.

@ big honkin jeep: Are you sure about the turret situation? I read somewhere that if the elevation turret isn't in line with the vertical wire and you have the reticle level then when you make elevation adjustments it's going to make slight windage adjustments too. ie, the turret isn't exactly vertical so it's pushing the erector slightly to one side or the other at the same time it's moving up and down. In other words, if the turret is slightly tilted to the right of being level, when you adjust up and down it will move the cross hairs slightly left and right too.

tt123: It's a Swift Premier SRP 8-32x50.

I'm not sure I ever owned an optic where the turret was out of whack with the vertical crosshair. Many decades ago as a kid I had an air rifle with the scope set up canted so that the crosshairs made an x and the turrets made a V just cause I thought it was cool :)
I know for a fact if the vertical crosshair isn't plumb then you're gonna have problems without a doubt especially at longer ranges. The turret thing though I wouldnt think it would have an effect, but sounds like an optic that needs replacement to me.

[1S1K]

Did you place the level on the "Turret" or on the CAP that covers the turret?

[efm77]

The level was placed on the cap. The reticle being slightly out of line with the turret is more common than you would think. Even Leupold has a history of it and have their tolerances. I don't know the exact figures but if it's within a couple degrees of the turret they call it good. I think you're wrong on the turret not having an effect though. If it's not straight up and down the erector assembly isn't going to straight up and down either, it's going to follow what ever plane it's being pushed/pulled from. When I get time (something I don't have much of to spare lately) I'll take some pictures and post them to show you. Take a look at yours, I'll bet you have some that are slightly off too, you just may have never noticed it. Level your turrets and then look at your reticle against a plumb line and see. Now if it's a Nightforce or something like that, it's not likely to happen but lots of others will be off slightly.

[squirrelsniper]

As you found out, canted reticles are pretty common and it's not just lower priced scopes that are affected. Every company has what it considers "acceptable" limits. Most of those "acceptable" limits can be a problem at longer ranges. Even though it may have happened at some point, there's only three companies I've never personally seen nor had a reliable source tell me about a significantly canted reticle in a scope; those are Nightforce, USO, and Premier.

As for how to deal with it, it depends on whether you use hold-overs or dial in corrections. If you're using hold-overs only, once you get past the initial zeroing, then it really doesn't matter about the turrets as you're using only the reticle. In that case, level the reticle. I often set up short range hunting rifles this way since I will be relying on the reticle only.

Personally, I dial in corrections for long range shooting so it becomes the opposite problem. The center of the reticle will move wherever the turrets go, so the turrets had better be straight. When shooting this way, the reticle doesn't matter much IF you use a level instead of just trusting your eyes (which can lie) to know when the rifle and scope are level before each shot. It really doesn't matter if the reticle is tilted at a 5° angle IF you're using the center of the reticle as an aiming point and you have both the turrets and rifle level. So for my type of long range shooting, when I set up a new rifle/scope combo, I put the rifle in a padded vise and level it, then level the scope off the turrets. When I know all is in agreement, I install a bubble level so I can check it before squeezing off each shot. I don't pay any attention to whether the lines of the reticle are straight or not, I use only the center of the reticle as an aiming point and I'm using a level to verify that the rifle (and hence the scope turrets) are level. Don't trust any screw-on scope caps for leveling though, at least use the turret body itself for leveling, and on scopes where it's practical, I actually remove the turret knob and level directly off the post the turret attaches to (some posts are too small and/or rounded near the top, so it's not practical to do this with many scopes).

[efm77]

Thank you squirrelsniper. That's the kind of answer I was looking for. I think I'm going to e-mail or call them and ask what their "acceptable range" is to see if it's worth it to send it back or not. I haven't checked all of them yet but so far both of my 8-32x models are off just a little. The others I've checked seem to be right.

This is with the reticle leveled. Disclaimer: The rifle is unloaded and the paneling on my neighbor's house has been verified with a plumb line.
http://i775.photobucket.com/albums/yy39/efm77/Picture001-1_zpsb3f8a766.jpg

http://i775.photobucket.com/albums/yy39/efm77/Picture002-1_zps6f2fc27d.jpg

Here it is with the turret leveled.
http://i775.photobucket.com/albums/yy39/efm77/Picture003_zpsc5a92889.jpg

http://i775.photobucket.com/albums/yy39/efm77/Picture004_zps4c4e60af.jpg

As you can see, it's not bad but it is there. I don't shoot at extreme ranges so it probably won't hurt anything for me. This one I've set up with the reticle leveled and the rest I've done I've leveled them based on the turret. I haven't quite decided whether or not I want to change this one or not. I haven't sighted it in yet.

[seanhagerty]

Try the method described here to mount your scope and see if this doesnt help.

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/index.php?topic=3797149.msg36127244#msg36127244

[efm77]

Thanks. I don't have a problem mounting the scope though. The problem is that the reticle isn't exactly square with the turrets. This is an internal problem with the scope, not with how it's mounted.

[Topstrap]

Very few tops of turrets are "level". Setting it initially using feeler gauges between the mount and the flat surface on the bottom of the scope usually will put it exact. Then testing by adding elevation to cover the max distance you'll be shooting and seeing it it tracks perfectly up a true vertical line from zero to max setting will tell it it's tracking vertically true. I've had a couple less expensive scopes that when set to track true the reticle was canted but using the bubble level each shot after making the correct adjustment it tracked and worked fine, just had to get past the can't look and ignore it.

Topstrap

[efm77]

True enough about the turrets but this is enough of a difference that you can tell it's canted slightly. I don't know that I would trust the feeler guages completely either. What if your rings are high enought that they won't even fit snugly in between. What if it's just enough difference that the guage won't fit unless you take one out and then by taking that one out it's too much slack and the guage is leaning? Just seems like could happen too easily to me. I'll give it a try but as I said before, that's not the problem. You can tell the reticle isn't square with the turret. With the reticle level, I'm going to track the elevation with a plumb line and see what it does. Thanks for all the input guys.

[Texas Solo]

EFM77....Excellent pics! They really drive home the point you're making.

[pitsnipe]

Personally I would level the cross hair. That canted "look" would drive me N U T Z !!!!!!!

[efm77]

That's the way I have it mounted, with the crosshair leveled. I was just shifting the rifle in the vise to change from the crosshair to the turret being level to demonstrate how it's off. As an update, I also put a pitch gauge on it and it appears it's only off by 1 degree according to it. I still haven't had a chance to shoot it yet and am not sure when that will happen. However, I did run the elevation all the way across it's range up and down that plum line. The line on that siding is about an inch wide or so, maybe a little more. From top to bottom the center of the crosshair would move from one side of the line to the other and that's just a little over 100 yards. I'm not sure how much of that was lateral drift with the turret and how much of it was me because the rifle would quiver when I turned the turret. So even though it appears to move some, it's not too bad all things considered. I did talk to Swift's technician and e-mailed the photos to him and he agreed with me. However, we agreed that I would shoot it first and see how it does. He told me to let him know how it went after I shot it and I could send it back to them if I wanted.

[ODA 0121]

efm77,
You need to send that scope either to where you purchased it or to the manufacturer. Any time you can easily see a reticle that far off, it's off period.

Also some here have it correct in that you should not be leveling by using the turret or the cap. When a scope is progressing through the building process the flat bottom is on a level optical bench platform and that is how a quality scope will be adjusted and tested from.
Level your scope by it's flat base, the receiver and rail (if using one).

[yobuck]

i would personaly be picking a (plumb) not level object for aligning the cross hair.
i would next zero the rifle at my preferred zero distance. (100 yds for me)
then id find a distant rock on a hillside to shoot at and dial up to the distance.
if i hit it id be happy. if not id correct and shoot again. we dont live in a perfect world.
otherwise there would be no wind or tree branches or other reasons which could cause a miss.
we can annalize the reason or shoot again and i prefer the latter.

[efm77]

If you'll notice in the post with the pictures I said that the lines in the siding were verified to be plumb with a plumb line. I aligned the cross hair with a plumb line while the rifle was held level in a vise. As for the flat bottom, who's to say the reticle is square with that? I suppose that will work if you have it mounted on a rail but if you don't then you can't do it that way as far as I can see. Also these scopes use a coil spring on the erector that has a small protrusion on the bottom left corner of the flat base so I'm not sure if you could get it to work on this particular scope or not. Anyway I'm planning to use this one as a sight it in and leave it alone. In other words, I'm not planning on dialing with it anyway so it will probably be ok. We'll see how it goes when I shoot it and if it bothers me too bad at that point I'll send it back.