Accutrigger issue

[choclabs]

I have a new Model 10 Predator Hunter Max1 .243 Win. Last night (close to dark) I was sighting in a re-mounted scope and was able to self induce maybe 10 or so Failure to Fire events. The make shift shooting bench I was using put my right hand in such a position that I was putting pressure on the Accu-Trigger with an abundance of side pressure. My trigger finger was pulling the silver pre-release staging trigger and the black trigger simultaneously. Try to picture the force being applied at a 45 degree angle of travel versus a straight back pull. I am not certain if the pre-staging trigger (OK I promise to look up the proper terminology) was getting fully pulled back prior to release of the firin pin? This was repeatable once I paid more attention to this event versus wher the point of impact was.

When checking the primer, it appeared to not even have been struck.

Has anyone ever experienced this? If not I challenge you to try it...or better yet do not try it. If you get it to happen in a repeatable fashion you just may begin to not trust your gu to go bang every time you pull the trigger???????????? I may even start a new topic if I cannot find my circumstances posted.

I plan to do a more in depth searh of this forum to see if anyone else has posted questions about such an occurence.

[choclabs]

SO I performed a forum search and found out that improper trigger technique on an Accu-trigger will definitely cause this proble every time. When I was not pulling directly back I was creating an improper pressure angle which causes the silver trigger blade to mal-function and messes up the trigger release of the firing pin process. More research on my part will help me better understand how releasing the firing pin to go forward in any manner, could cause a non strike to occur?????? Although there are also many posts and some articles in the FAQ section which go into great detail about protruding firing pin settings and proper lenghts of firing pin to head space etc. So the Savage bolt seems to have some ability designed in for humans to muck up the firing pin lenght settings as well as the potential for Accu-trigger induced failure to fire situations. I am glad that my bolt and firing pin are set to give the proper lenght as I only use factory ammo and that would drive me crazy. As it is I am now only 1/2 crazy due to me knowing that I MUST always pull both trigger blades straight back or I could have another FtF. At least I do not use a Savage to hunt dangerous game with HaHa!

I admit that I was using a very unnnatural shooting rest which cocked my trigger hand to an awkward angle and helped me create this problem. But I have NEVER had a trigger pull induced FtF on any other rifle that I have ever shot....WOW.

Thanks again and be careful with this undocumented feature if you have an Accu-trugger!

[earl39]

The center blade is an additional safety and by not pulling it straight back completely befire pulling the actual trigger you have failed to release ( for lack of a better term) the safety built into the trigger which locks up the sear preventing the drop of the firing pin which is your FTF. The feature is fully documented if you will just read the instructions that came with your rifle:

"WITH SAFETY AS OUR PRIMARY CONCERN, THE ACCUTRIGGER TM DESIGN REQUIRES THE
SHOOTER TO PLACE THEIR FINGER SQUARELY OVER THE ACCURELEASE TM. PULLING
THE TRIGGER FROM THE SIDE OR NOT DIRECTLY REARWARD WILL CAUSE THE SEAR TO
DISENGAGE AND BE BLOCKED BY THE ACCURELEASE ™ . ALTHOUGH A ‘CLICK’ MAY BE
HEARD, THE SEAR IS BLOCKED, PREVENTING THE FIRING PIN FROM HITTING THE PRIMER.
WHEN THIS HAPPENS, THE BOLT MUST BE RAISED AND LOWERED TO ‘RECOCK’ THE
FIREARM." or you can find the directions @ https://s3.amazonaws.com/savagefiles/manuals/manual_centerfire_rifles_accutrigger.pdf

[pdog06]

choclabs,
Youre original post was hijacking another thread so I split it off into its own topic for you.

[stangfish]

The trigger was doing exactly what it was designed to do. The blade must be pulled back before the trigger can be pulled. That is the way it was designed to keep accidents from happening

[thomae]

Bottom line, this was not really a "failure to fire," but rather the safety mechanism of the trigger working as designed.
The other thing to think about is that if you are not pulling straight back on the trigger, you are moving your point of aim and your accuracy will suffer. Sometimes not enough to notice, but other times it can be the difference between winning and placing in a match, or perhaps when hunting, the difference between a "Dead Right There" shot instead of a wounding shot that requires hours of tracking.

[choclabs]

It has been pointed out to me that I did not RTFM (Read The F_ _ _ing Manual). For that I am now enlightened. However, since Savage does document this feature, wouldn't it be nice for them to point this out prior to learning about it after purchase? Perhaps on their website, listed as an additional safety attribute of the Accu-trigger design?

For what it is worth even the Glock (similar 2 blade design) trigger will fire if the trigger is pressed with side pressure. I'm glad I was not out hunting Grizzly or Kodiak bear with my Savage Model 10 .243 Win and had to learn the hard way that FtF can be human induced!

If the firing pin was released, I heard it (or maybe I heard something else?), why did the cartridge not fire. Maybe what I heard click was not the firing pin being released, I am still learning about my Savage. But if what I heard go click when pulling the trigger with a side motion was the firing pin then I beleive it was a FtF. If it were just the Accu-trigger performing a safety stop witin the trigger housing then it definitely was not a FtF. So I acknowledge your point of no FtF, as the firing pin did not actually release and move forward. There certainly were no pings in the primer base.

Now I AM NOT bashing Savage!!! I will not replace my Accu-trigger as I love the safe, light, factory set break point. When properly pulled it is magnificent and is as good as both of my Sako actions that have had the trigger have had jobs to polish the surfaces and set to 1.5lbs. So I know hat a GOOD trigger is supposed to feel like, in fact the Savage is similar in it's crisp light break point to my Ed Brown 1911. So again I do know what a fine trigger feels like and am quite aware of how much of a benefit to long range accuracy a good crisp light trigger pull is on a rifle. I have paid to get triggers to act like a factory new Savage Accu-trigger!

But the BIG difference is that EVERY time I pull these triggers the guns go BANG! Even my Glock pistols (crappy trigger feel and break point) go bang if their trigger is pulled from the side.

Now let us imagine.....say you are elk hunting in Idaho with a Savage that has an Accu-trigger. Let us continue to imagine.....you proceed to enter the hunting area of a resident wolf pack.....Let us continue to imagine......like me you did not RTFM.....it is mid calf deep with snow.....the wolves are hungry enough to stalk you and attack.....you fire 3 shots and are down to your last round.....your adrenalin is pumping and your legs are stumbling around.....you attempt your last shot that is loaded in the gun......you happen to pull the trigger sideways and the rifle does not go BANG.

Hey guys this is obviously a fairy tale not reality. But imagine you are out in Africa hunting Cape Buffalo and your professional hunter (guide) has to pull your hide out of the fire because your Accu-trigger equiped Savage rifle that you inssisted to hunt with did not go bang. Again another fabricated story.

But here are facts, the Savage Accu-trigger does not go bang every time you pull the trigger. Another fact, this is an intentional designed in "safety" feature, NOT, it can in fact be argued that it is a design flaw. I know that I am wide open for the Savage Accu-trigger lovers to begin bashing me to shreds. And that is fine with me as I already admitted to knowingly figuring out that I could repeatedly induce said safety feature, failure to go bang. It was a random circumstance of my improvised shooting setup which created an awkward angle for my wrist on my trigger hand.

Another fact that I hold as true and challenge for you guys to teach me that I am wrong, no other gun manufacturer designs their weapons to not go bang if their trigger is pulled with a sideways predominant pressure. If this is not true please name the weapon so that I can once again admit to being less than informed.

Brothers Savage, I submit for the sake of debate that this documented feature is not a safety improvement. I would not have my finger on the trigger if I did not intend to launch a projectile. A SA/DA pistol with a 10 to 11 pound first pull trigger setting is a safety feature. Even this type of pistol setup goes bang if pulled with a side pressure. In fact it is almost impossible to demonstrate proper trigger form with such a heavy first trigger pull setting.

So let us agree that the Savage Accu-trigger is UNIQUE in the industry, in fact a VAST improvement and differentiator over other liability lawyered designs. I love the Accu-trigger, I just imagine I am like many other experienced shooters, I did not RTFM prior to going to the range and finding out by experience.

Thank you to sa very many Savage Shooters forum member for sharing their combined experience and wisdom with a NEWBIE Savage rifle owner.

Respectfully submitted for thought provocation.
Michael

[ellobo]

If the accu-trigger was designed to fire even with side pressure what is the point of the accutrigger safety design? Your missing the point. Other makers have gone to a similar design, Savage is not alone. Side pressure on a trigger is lousy techique anyway, accutrigger or not. Just pull the trigger as it was designed and be happy.

El Lobo

[stangfish]

Step away from the keyboard

[stangfish]

Step away from the Keyboard

[earl39]

Another fact that I hold as true and challenge for you guys to teach me that I am wrong, no other gun manufacturer designs their weapons to not go bang if their trigger is pulled with a sideways predominant pressure. If this is not true please name the weapon so that I can once again admit to being less than informed.

You might want to also look at Marlin rifles as they have a new trigger that is very similar to the Savage accutrigger.


dadgumit out swam by a fish

[thomae]

Ok, before this spirals out of control, let's take a step back and a deep breath. The click heard is the "accurelease" (the notch on the accutrigger center blade) catching the sear as it releases BEFORE it allows the firing pin to move forward and strike the primer. No system is perfect, and you may or may not like the accutrigger, but it does what it was designed to do.

Some, but not all, of the straight back issue can be resolved (for those of you who pull at an angle) by shimming the trigger so there is less side to side movement.

However, choclabs, no one is trying to insult you because you have a different technique than they (or I do). It is quite possible, nay, probable, that you are a better shooter than I am. That's ok with me even if you do that by pulling sideways. I am not criticizing your technique.

As for your long post with the hypothetical situations, I would hope that you would practice with your equipment until you had the confidence that it would operate every time you needed it to do so.
If I go to Africa to hunt, or if I venture into wolf country, and I don't practice with my gear, shame on me, regardless if I am shooting a Savage, Remington, or 10,000 dollar custom made rifle.

If you don't like the accutrigger, no problem. Take yours off, sell it in the classifieds (Trust me, plenty of takers there) and buy yourself an aftermarket trigger that fits your needs.

Again, let's not get upset. I reread every post in this thread, and there were no personal attacks (Please remember that Stangfish has a very dry sense of humor, that's all.), so let's all calm down. It's OK for me to not like a piece of equipment that someone else likes, or vice versa. After all, it's only a hunk of machined or stamped metal.

[stangfish]

Thanks thomae, The truth is I took a jab at him. It was in good fun. But to be honest......

Respectfully submitted for thought provocation. Michael

Spells TROLL LOL

[choclabs]

My intended communication is, I doubt that the Savage engineers spent time listing design parameters for the Accu-trigger which included "how can we make sure that the new Accu-trigger is designed to not fire when a sideways pull occurs". It is now my full understanding that the Accu-trigger design reliably results in a no fire situation when improper trigger pull is demonstrated. In addition I do now understand that this condition is documented by Savage. We all are in agreement that sideways pressure is not proper pull technique. I also have no concern about my ability to hit my intended target more or less often that someone else. My ultimate concern is to have my weapon fire a round when the trigger is pulled, everytime.

What I have evidently not communicated is that I do not consider this a designed in safety feature as some of our forum members have suggested. There are better ways to utilize the concept of "I do not wish to fire this weapon right now, especially if I deploy a sideways pull". A few of those would be commonly accepted gun saftey protocol such as, no cartridge in chamber, no finger on trigger and safety in the on position. The fine point that I attempt to bring to the forum members is this, the described non firing situaton of the Accu-trigger is an unintended consequence of developing the best and safest factory trigger currently on the market. It could further be debated as to whether or not this is a liability since all of use expect to have our weapon fire when the trigger is pulled. Realize that the only way I know of to recock the trigger is to work the bolt action again and then your last cartridge is probably flying through the air towards the ground.

Well I was not invited to participate in the design process of the Accu-trigger, so I will never know for sure, however I doubt that this scenario was a sought after, intentionally designed in, additional safety parameter. I apologize to the other forum members who beleive that I am demonstrating pettiness. My hope that my new found incredularity for the documented fact that the Savage Accu-trigger can induce a non firing event due to improper trigger pull, does not offend anyone here on this forum.

One member so far has brought to our attention that Marlin has a new trigger assembly out which is similar to the Savage Accu-trigger. I doubt that I will encounter this design anytime soon to try and see if I can repeatedly induce a failure to release the firing pin situation. Are there any other weapons that will not fire with a sideways pre-dominant pull on the trigger?

[choclabs]

I am WRONG again - to clear this event "THE BOLT MUST BE RAISED AND LOWERED TO ‘RECOCK’ THE
FIREARM."

[ShowMeShooter]

this trigger will fire every time if you wish to change.

http://www.sharpshootersupply.com/

I don't like the idea of a firearm with this problem.
I coyote hunt a good bit, and if an out of position shot, with a bit less than perfect technique,
cost me a game animal, I would be bent, to say the least.

[Willoughby]

wow
I had no problem at all using the accu trigger for the first time
I just applied rearward pressure-
it released the sear, starting a chain reaction.......
the best trigger design ever....
the safest trigger design ever...
you ever tryed splittin wood with flat part of the ax ?
works much better using it as it was designed to use..................

[J.Baker]

What I have evidently not communicated is that I do not consider this a designed in safety feature as some of our forum members have suggested.

Just because you don't consider it as such doesn't mean that's not exactly what it is. You don't like it? Fine - change it. Remove the AccuBlade from the trigger, or go buy one of nearly a half dozen aftermarket triggers that are available for the Savage 110. Pissing and moaning about it here isn't going to change how it was designed, nor is it going to magically make it work how you want it to work - no matter how flawed your thinking may be on the matter.

And yes, the side force safety feature was a deliberately designed feature to help prevent accidental discharges in the event the rifle is dropped and something comes into contact with the trigger (rock, limb, your hand as you rush to try and catch it on the way down). And no it doesn't work like a Glock trigger, mainly because it's not a Glock.

[JustinN]

Glock triggers are still at least 5lbs, if not more, unless you drop in an aftermarket trigger. That is a big difference to me, a 5 pound sideways pull vs a 1.5 pound sideways pull. Just my opinion but I am glad the trigger won't easily go off from any position but a "normal" firing position. I don't really understand how you were not pulling the trigger normally. If I don't have a good grip on my gun and pull the trigger the same, my shots are affected by it. I try to fire my guns like my bow, the exact same release every time. My body may be in a weird position, but if my hand gets off the controls, things just don't feel/work right.

You have to consider the accutrigger was designed to let you get a super low low trigger pull without being worried about a slam fire. After having a 30-06 Remington 700 slam fire on you, after years of working ok, its not a fun experience.....

[choclabs]

If you intentionally place your finger on the trigger and pull rearwards (even if at a slightly sideways angle) it is not an accidental discharge.