22 Long Snapper

[handirifle]

OK, I've kinda been down this road before, but not with this round. My goal, is basically a reloadable version of the 22 WMR, BUT in centerfire. Thus the reloadable part. I have no desire to try and reload rimfire cases, at all. My reason, is today while at a local Big 5 store, was pricing 22 WMR ammo, and the prices varied from $15 to 18 for a box of 50.

Now I know there are cheaper sources, online, but they add ridiculous shipping fees, well over actual cost. With the components as cheap as they are, I could reload something like the Long Snapper for pennies. I also know the above round is rimmed, and won't feed in the Savage.

For those like me, that had never heard of it before today, here is a pic.

http://photos.imageevent.com/cas6969/shmisc/22lineupWEB.jpg

As you can see it is very close in size to the smaller magnums, and load data I have dug up show a 40gr bullet at around 2000fps, right there with the 22 WMR.

Some questions.

Anyone have any experience with this round?
Would this work as a single shot, in a Savage SA?

On the other side of things;
Picture courtesy of Steves pages http://stevespages.com/jpg/cd22hornet.jpg
http://stevespages.com/jpg/cd22hornet.jpg

Looking at the base end of the cartridge (22 Hornet) which seems to be the parent cartridge of the Long Snapper, could a rim be machined SAFELY into the base or would that make it too thin around the primer area?

If the above idea is not a good one, would the Savage bolts work with the rimmed case, to just eject it?

This round in 17 or 22 cal, being reloadable, would be ideal, for me.

Before you ask, my other options are 22LR, a little under powered for the 100-125yd shots (ground squirrels are the main target), although perfectly fine for the 50 and under.
Going the other direction, the 223 I have is a bit much in the noise dept. I live rural, but do not want something as loud as the 223 blasting away. In addition, I have tried reduced loads, close to the WMR, but they seem wildly inaccurate. This I assume is because of the greatly reduced loads, not providing consistent burns inside the case.
I fell the 22 Hornet would still be too much for my needs as well, so the Savage 25 is out.


I would rather buy a barrel, dies, and brass and redo a current rifle, than buy another one.

One other question, who would I contact, about possibly a special run of brass, ie. a rimmless version of the Long Snapper?

[cgeorgemo]

What about a 5.7 X 28? Anything wrong with that round? It's rimless, centerfire, and reloadable.

[bootsmcguire]

If you are going to go with a "Wild" Wildcat, then why not do something like a Snapper, but based on the 221-FB Case, or even simpler why not a 221-FB?

[handirifle]

Boots,
I think the FB case.(shortened 223) would be too much. case capacity, even shortened to the slightly over 1" as the others are. The dia is considerably greater. Not looking for ultra high velocity, 2000-2200 for a 35-40gr will suit me fine. Muzzle blast with this case would be getting a bit too much I am afraid. The 22 WMR is absolute max I want.



What about a 5.7 X 28? Anything wrong with that round? It's rimless, centerfire, and reloadable.


Darn good question! I wonder some things about this case. Could one use .223 dia bullets in it, for selection and cost savings? Could a Savage bolt head be made to use one it?

If I read these case dimensions correctly, the ID for the neck is .224. http://ammoguide.com/?catid=253, does that mean the .224 bullets would work, or is it too large given the .224 bullets seem to fall into the 5.56 size?

[handirifle]

Boots,
Of course, looking at the 22 Rem Jet, it is sloped enough that it might pretty well be close in capacity to what I want. Am wondering if one could use the 22 Jet dies, to form a trimmed 223 case?

Looking at these dimensions

http://stevespages.com/jpg/cd22remingtonjet.jpg

The base, just ahead of the rim, is .379, while the 223 is .375. So this might preclude the use of the Jet dies. They might not resize the base enough for smooth chambering.

Thoughts?

[cgeorgemo]

.22 Remington Jet? Thinking about another rimmed cartridge?

For the 5.7x28 the link you posted says .224 bullets under "Specifications".
I wonder about the velocity you'd get out of a rifle. Pistols are getting over 2000 fps...

[nsaqam]

The 5.7x28 has an odd sized casehead though. Don't know if you can find a Savage bolthead to accommodate it.

The .22 Tuason Craig Micromagnum (TCM) would fit the bill but sizing dies and reamers may be hard to find and expensive.

http://ammoguide.com/cgi-bin/ai.cgi?sn=LhEADOopZn&catid=834

[cgeorgemo]

Could a Savage bolt head be made to use one it?

This to me is the real question.

[nsaqam]

Could a Savage bolt head be made to use one it?

This to me is the real question.


Precisely why I recommended a rimless cartridge with a standard .378" rim diameter.

Can you guy who aren't subscribed to Ammoguide use the link I provided? Just curious.

[cgeorgemo]

Yes the link worked for me.
I like the look of the TCM but are dies available for it?

[handirifle]

.22 Remington Jet? Thinking about another rimmed cartridge?

Nope, this was at the bottom of that post "form a trimmed 223 case?"
but should have said FROM a trimmed 223 case, thus rimless.

For the 5.7x28 the link you posted says .224 bullets under "Specifications".
I wonder about the velocity you'd get out of a rifle. Pistols are getting over 2000 fps...


Duh! Missed that. Reading on the fiveseven forum, most guys there are scared to reload the little round, cause the pressure spikes are kinda out of control, at least most say that.

[nsaqam]

You can get loaded .22 TCM ammo here.

http://www.advancedtactical.com/advancedtactical/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=181&category_id=6&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=53

Someone must be making reamers for this cartridge as RIA (ARMSCOR) is selling pistols chambered for it.

Like I said though, getting dies and a reamer is probably going to be expensive.

Dave Kiff at PTG will grind reamers for both the chamber and the dies and RCBS will make the dies if you want to spend the money.

[handirifle]

Could a Savage bolt head be made to use one it?

This to me is the real question.


Precisely why I recommended a rimless cartridge with a standard .378" rim diameter.

Can you guy who aren't subscribed to Ammoguide use the link I provided? Just curious.


I am not subscribed, but the link worked fine. I think all we lose is the load data.

That round looks interesting, very much like a shortened 223 case, just a slightly narrower base and rim dia with .373 vs .378.

Yes, I also missed the fact that these are pistol velocities, wonder how much more it would be in a rifle barrel? I doubt it would gain more than 100-200fps due to the small case capacity. Heck, there are some cases when the barrel is long enough, it actually SLOWS the bullet, since powder long since quit burning and barrel friction comes into play.

[handirifle]

You can get loaded .22 TCM ammo here.

http://www.advancedtactical.com/advancedtactical/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=181&category_id=6&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=53

Someone must be making reamers for this cartridge as RIA (ARMSCOR) is selling pistols chambered for it.

Like I said though, getting dies and a reamer is probably going to be expensive.

Dave Kiff at PTG will grind reamers for both the chamber and the dies and RCBS will make the dies if you want to spend the money.


Yea there IS a limit, on what I will spend, for sure. It doesn't have to happen all at once though. Ammo cost is more than the WMR, but being reloadable, I should get at least 6-8 reloads from the cases, if pressures are kept low. With only 6 reloads, that brings brass cost to around .09c ea. Then of course there are bullets, primer and powder.

I will have to look around about the dies and reamers. I wonder if 223 brass could be resized successfully to use in that chamber? Of course that would involve the brass forming dies then, adding to the cost.

[handirifle]

OK did some more reading on the little TCM, and it is made from formed 223 brass, even has the same 23 deg shoulder. So a shortened set of 223 dies ought to fill the bill. As for the chamber, a good smith ought to be able to ream the chamber, just by limiting how deep you ream it. Now I wonder if the brass could be cut and formed by using the 223 die, or if an intermediate die would have to be made?

This thing is starting to look doable. A decent .224 barrel is an affordable thing for sure, and even maybe a set of Lee dies to shorten on my lathe. Hmmmm


nsaqam
Thanks for pointing me in the right direction.

[nsaqam]

You can't just shorten the dies or short ream the barrel because the base diameters are the same on the .223 and the TCM.

Dave Kiff at PTG does reasonably priced work for your chamber reamer and CH dies can make make any die you want also reasonably priced.

Another option is to have Kiff make you a chambering reamer, chamber your barrel, and send it back to him to cut it a little smaller for your die reamer. Then get blank dies from CH and cut your die chamber. Polish it and have it hardened and you're golden.

Another die option worth exploring is to get a .223 Lee Collet die and trim the collet to the length required for the TCM. The only problem you may have there is if the TCM is so much shorter than the .223 that you'll have to trim the collet so much that you'll be up into the collet slits.
If it will work though this is a very easy and inexpensive way to get a die. You also need to make a spacer the same thickness as the amount trimmed.

I've modified several LCD's to work with shorter cartridges and it's easy.

[nsaqam]

Doing some calculations and you'd have to remove .704", call it .700", from the bottom of the .223 LCD to make it work perfectly with the TCM.

If you have a .223 LCD you could measure whether you can trim .700" off the bottom without getting into the collet slits.

If so you're golden and you'll have the superb LCD for your TCM for $25 and a little lathe work.

[bootsmcguire]

That TCM is basically what I was thinking with the short 221FB Suggestion. Looks like this could work. Keep us all up to speed. Curiosity has got a grip now.

[handirifle]

You can't just shorten the dies or short ream the barrel because the base diameters are the same on the .223 and the TCM.

Dave Kiff at PTG does reasonably priced work for your chamber reamer and CH dies can make make any die you want also reasonably priced.

Another option is to have Kiff make you a chambering reamer, chamber your barrel, and send it back to him to cut it a little smaller for your die reamer. Then get blank dies from CH and cut your die chamber. Polish it and have it hardened and you're golden.

Another die option worth exploring is to get a .223 Lee Collet die and trim the collet to the length required for the TCM. The only problem you may have there is if the TCM is so much shorter than the .223 that you'll have to trim the collet so much that you'll be up into the collet slits.
If it will work though this is a very easy and inexpensive way to get a die. You also need to make a spacer the same thickness as the amount trimmed.

I've modified several LCD's to work with shorter cartridges and it's easy.


Please don't take this wrong, cause I really do not know the answer, but why can't I just shorten the die or short ream? Bear in mind that I have not measured the .704" from the bottom of the brass to see what the dia is, but looking at the pic of the TCM, it is slightly smaller at the base than the 223 case, so I thought it might work out.

What's the difference between std die and the collet die? Never used or seen a collet die.

Boots,
Yea I see that now. I will update. I may contact Lee and ask them about what the dia would be if .704 were removed. That would really be sweet if it were that easy.

[nsaqam]

The body/shoulder junction on the TCM is .367" in diameter while the same junction on the .223 is .354".
This junction would remain on a shortened .223 die and would also be present on the .223 reamer.

The LCD is unique among dies in that it uses a compressible collet to squeeze the neck around a central mandrel. This collet has a bunch of clearance around the body and the shoulder and the only thing it sizes is the neck. This is the reason you can use a standard LCD on the AI versions of the same cartridge.

Here's some pics of one I did a while ago.

This was a .257 Roberts to .250 Savage conversion.

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/IMG_00468.JPG

A closer picture of the modified die.

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/IMG_004711.JPG

Someone on here must have a .223 LCD that they could measure for you.