Annealing steel cases

[dolomite_supafly]

I just did some testing using some Wolf steel cased. I shot it out of my 24” AR with a 308 bore. The reloads are all 308 sized bullets.

After initially firing I annealed the case mouths by placing the casing in a socket then heating the case mouth until it began to glow red. I let it cool slowly then FL resized with a set of RCBS dies using the .308 mandrel. At the same time I knocked the center of the berdan priming system out.

After the initial firings and after annealing the case length was 1.51"-1.52" and throughout the lengths remained the same or at least within .01”.

The firing/ annealing schedule was to anneal, fire 4, anneal, fire 4, giving a total of 8 loaded firings.

I normally load heavy bullets in my 7.62x39 so the powder I use is Varget, it is the only appropriate powder I have on hand.

I started by loading a 86gr FMJ over 20 grains of Varget. After all the firings there was no discernable stretching of the case. This load did no unlock the bolt and the case was easy to extract.

Next was the 86 grain FMJ over 22 grains of Varget and again no stretching of the case of apparent problems with the case structure. This load acted exactly the same as the above with only a little more noise.

Next load was 155 grain SMK over 22 grains of Varget and it mimicked the other cases with no stretching or obvious problems. This load ejected the cases but would not lock the bolt back.

The final load was 180 SP loaded over 22 grains of Varget, this load was able to lock the bolt back on an AR and eject the cases without issue. The primers are showing signs but nothing to worry about.

With all the loads resizing became easier after about the 4th or 5th firing. And the rounds chambered fine with the exception of unburned powder left in the chamber from the reduced loads causing the cases to hang from time to time. A quick clean with a bore brush and it was fixed. When firing full power loads this wasn't an issue.

The problem is with the primer pockets. They are both too shallow and too loose to be used in an auto. I was able to seat the primers but they amount sticking out of the case caused slam fires if I tried to feed from a magazine or by just dropping the bolt on the chambered round, definitely not anything I would even consider safe. If I rode the bolt forward then used the forward assist to lock it up there wasn’t any problems with unexpected firing. With the loose primer pocket I had about 5-6 primers come out during firing. There were no signs of gas escaping out of the loose primer pockets, I suspect the sealed then contracted again after the pressure drops.

Each case had a total of 9 firings and I did not see any signs of problems with the case structure and in a pinch I might actually use steel case for a bolt gun but I would never consider it in an auto for obvious reasons.

If I get time and get to feeling a little better I may do the same test except not anneal the cases to see at what point a problem arises. Right now I am pretty much spent for the next day or two because of the added activity.


If you have any questions please ask
Dolomite

[brianinca]

Where did you get your Berdan primers?

Edit to add: In re-reading, is it that you converted the Berdan to a Boxer-ish primer? Is that why the primers protrude?

Neat experiment!

Regards,
Brian in CA

[dolomite_supafly]

Where did you get your Berdan primers?

Edit to add: In re-reading, is it that you converted the Berdan to a Boxer-ish primer? Is that why the primers protrude?

Neat experiment!

Regards,
Brian in CA


No conversion, just put them in and go. They were loose and higher than berdan but somewhat worked.

Dolomite

[Ksmirk]

Forgive me if I'm wrong but heating of steel to the point of of color change would harden the steel unlike brass that gets softer with heat. There is some dohicky thinggy out there that can tighten up primer pockets I have heard of it but have not needed anything like that so I'm not gonna be much help but there is some sort of tool. they also have the primer pocket reamers but if the primers are loose then that wouldn't be of much help but my help with the high primer issue?

Berdan over Boxer primer the only difference is Boxer has a single flash hole and berdan has the double flash hole. Later,

Kirk

[dolomite_supafly]

Steel takes a relatively fast quench to harden. Allowing it to cool slowly reduces the hardness.

If you take hardened steel and heat it to a glowing state then allow it to cool slowly it will no longer be as hard. If you take the same metal heat it until it glows and fast quench it the steel will be hard again.

Most Large rifle boxer primers run .118"-.121" while Berdan primers are listed at .133", a difference of .012. May not seem like much but it definitely enough to cause slam fires in my AR.

I have no intentions of reloading steel cased ammo, I just wanted to see if all the hype was true about reloading steel cased.

Dolomite

[BobT]

Berdan over Boxer primer the only difference is Boxer has a single flash hole and berdan has the double flash hole. Later,

Kirk


Actually Berdan primers have no anvil, it is incorporated in the primer pocket. Boxer primers have an anvil in the primer.

[Der Verge]

Steel takes a relatively fast quench to harden. Allowing it to cool slowly reduces the hardness.

If you take hardened steel and heat it to a glowing state then allow it to cool slowly it will no longer be as hard. If you take the same metal heat it until it glows and fast quench it the steel will be hard again.

Most Large rifle boxer primers run .118"-.121" while Berdan primers are listed at .133", a difference of .012. May not seem like much but it definitely enough to cause slam fires in my AR.

I have no intentions of reloading steel cased ammo, I just wanted to see if all the hype was true about reloading steel cased.

Dolomite

Actually, it does not matter if you quench the steel, or let it cool over a long period of time. You are still hardening it. If I remember this correctly, when you quench the steel you are forming shorter crystals and loading the ferrite with carbon, causing the steel to be harder, but much more brittle than cooling over a period of time.

[Eric in NC]

Also - what does heating it do to the laquer/poly coating on the steel? Must burn or melt it off - ready to rust up in seconds right?

[EFBell]

Low carbon steel wont change a whole lot; if at all by annealing. Annealing is done with high carbon steel by slow cooling in a furnace or by burrying in sand etc. after a good "heat soaking" in a furnace or other process so it can be worked. Heat treating brings it back to hardness after machining / working. Do what you want with low carbon steel. It does not change a whole heck of a lot. To harden mild steel you need to add carbon somehow. I'm not a metalurgist so I may be off a little on this but the basics are sound. I did do a lot of metal work and welding in my early days including a little forge and machine work.

[Der Verge]

If you heat either steel enough to make any change in the metal, the steel with absorb the carbon in the CO/CO2 given off by the fuel burned to heat the steel.

What I really do not understand is, why in the (insert your choice of word here) are we wasting our time on this subject? What money you think you might save using steel cases is wasted in additional wear on your equipment. Beyond that, steel has NOTHING on brass as a reloadable case.

My work is done here.............

[EFBell]

If you heat either steel enough to make any change in the metal, the steel with absorb the carbon in the CO/CO2 given off by the fuel burned to heat the steel.

What I really do not understand is, why in the (insert your choice of word here) are we wasting our time on this subject? What money you think you might save using steel cases is wasted in additional wear on your equipment. Beyond that, steel has NOTHING on brass as a reloadable case.



My work is done here............ .



point one: miniscule at best, you don't turn mild steel into tool steel by heating it with acetylene or other carbon based fuel.

point two: totally agree.


Mine also

[dolomite_supafly]

WOW, I did this mostly to get my mind off of life for a while. Last year I was in a helo crash that has changed my life forever. I decided to do this rather than sit around and get dumber by the minute.

I had no intentions of using steel cases to reload.

Dolomite

[EFBell]

dolomite, don't take things personal, I try not too. It's just a discussion.

[tinkerer]

As long as we're discussing this, I would offer that the exercise is largely just exercise. AS far as I know, we anneal the std case because the brass/coppper work hardens and starts splitting, etc. As fas as I know, I don't believe that steel cases do that, so annealing steel cases is not necessary. Now IF you were reloading the aluminum blaser cases, they may fatigue and split, regardless.

Again, YMMV.

Larry
tinkerer

[PBinWA]

Cool post and thread. Thanks for sharing the experience.

Some people don't understand curiosity and doing things just to see what happens. Reading about something is one thing - doing it and living the experience is often much more fun. ;)

[Bad Water Bill]

Dolomite I do not think anyone meant anything negative.

I have wondered for years as I helped clean up the range of many steel casings if they could be reloaded and you have provided an answer. I thank you for doing all of the work and sharing your findings.

Those who have not experienced times like yours can not understand how important to your well being projects like that are in taking your mind off major issues. I think many here will back me up when I say we aare here if you need any help. Keep on chugging as life doeas get better.

[dolomite_supafly]

I guess how it was supposed to come across got lost over the internet. They sounded like they were being smart asses with a holier than thou attitude. I just hate the websites where it is nothing more than arguments over who has a bigger "member" or who is better than who. I do not think I am any better than anyone else and was just passing on info others might find interesting mostly because all you hear about is speculation why you can't reload steel.

Thanks Bad Water Bill for saying what you said. It makes sense that they meant nothing negative but it just came across as something totally different.

Dolomite

[diriel]

@dolomite,

Thank you for posting on a subject I have actually wondered about for quite a while. I am an avid reloader but never quite got around to giving it a whirl. Now as for the non annealed test, I am even more curious to know the results when you get them.

For the rest of you: Heating regular mild to high carbon steel to "red" heat level, then letting it cool slowly absolutely does Anneal it. If you were to quench it then you would harden it. How much hardness would be gained by a quench would depend mostly upon the carbon content. There are of course types of special alloy steels that change the rules a good bit, but we are talking about "garden variety" steel here.

Keep on kickin' it Dolomite!
Gary

[CJ in WY]

Somewhere along the line I ended up with a bunch of steel cased Wolf 223 that where boxer primed. Never tryed aneiling them but did chamfer the inside to help from shaving the bullet. Reloaded a cases 6 or 7 times to see how long they would last with mild loads.........They worked alright for blasting ammo but sure couldnt get them to group good enough for prairie dogs. Was going to throw them out but decided to store just in case??

[David Sinko]

I have reloaded and shot hundreds of rounds of boxer primed Wolf steel .223 cases. I will actually go out of my way and dig them out of the trash at the range. They almost never stretch after that first firing and the primer pockets don't need to be reamed, which saves a tremendous amount of case preparation time. CCI primers give the tightest fit and there is never any gas leakage or loose primers. I find the steel cases especially useful for USPSA rifle and multigun matches where I am not allowed to pick up my brass. My loads are no less accurate than their brass cased counterparts. I have loaded some numerous times to see how they hold up and the neckk always cracks fist. I have never seen any problems in the head or shoulder area. Obviously the rims hold up quite well. I have never annealed any of them. I also had some S&B steel .223 that worked just as well. I also load some Wolf steel .45 ACP to shoot out of my Glock 21s and this works fine too, but I would not shoot steel case ammo out of any of my 625 revolvers. And last but not least I have also reloaded some boxer primed aluminum .45 ACP Blazer, just to see if it can be done. It can be done, but the cases will sometimes split when being belled. I have no qualms with reloading steel but I would reload aluminum only in an emergency and if nothing else were available. My take on all this is that as reloaders we need to know what is and is not feasible since the face of the handloading landscape can change abruptly literally overnight.

Dave Sinko