A one caliber question

[handirifle]

Seeing how things are going economy wise, read getting from bad to worse, with gas prices on the rise, food prices and raw metals, you name it, things are going through the roof. It's getting so I will most likely need to pick a caliber and stick with it for my major reloading/hunting endeavors. It will need to be one with readily available components like brass, bullets etc. For the present time it needs to have a decent selection of lead free bullets, but if things go really south i won't really care if there is lead in them or not, not if it becomes a matter of meat on the table or go hungry.

I am thinking along the lines of a 30-06 or 300 Wm. I know the 300 has more reach and a little more oomph, but at a cost of powder, and recoil.

The old '06 does almost anything the 300 will, but not as far out, not quite as flat, but uses less powder, less recoil. I believe brass is available almost anywhere for either, right?

I need to add, this will be a big game gun, for pigs and up, and I will be a self limiting shooter to a max of 300-400yds, preferably closer.

What are your thoughts, opinions?

[Aircraftmech76]

The '06 isn't going to do anything better than the 308 can do at those ranges. You can find oodles of milsurp brass in 308, and everyone and their brother makes every conceivable kind of bullet for it be it hardcast lead, lead free, traditional, match, ballistic tip, controlled expansion, subsonic, varmint, solid (big game), solid (FMJ), bonded, sintered core; you name it, it's made in 30 caliber. Another benefit of running the shorter 308 case over the '06 is the availability of excellent Accuracy International pattern magazines. I just bought 4 of the ones available from Alpha Industries. Even with 10 stacked in the mag, they push out with just light finger pressure. They are also shorter in height due to their double stack/single feed configuration.

Kevin

[handirifle]

Thanks. The 308 wasn't really a consideration in this thought. I already have a 308 in one rifle, but was looking for a companion. The extra cap magazines are not as issue to me mainly because this is a hunting weapon. I already have others for a SHTF situation. I was concerned with a meat on the table, both for good times and bad.

If I read between your lines, are you suggesting the 300Wm, since the '06 and 08 are so close?

[JASmith]

The 30-06 has a fond place in my heart.

The '06 will handle heavier bullets than the .308 -- If you're looking at the larger animals you will want to use them.

I had a good conversation with a highly experienced Alaskan Outfitter and Guide (pioneeroutfitters.com) a few months back. He indicated that the 300 WM is adequate for all the animals in Alaska, but that the 30-06 would work if you're willing to stalk closer to the quarry.

If your hunting won't include the largest game and you are truly concerned about where things might be headed, then the .308 argument trumps both. I would also look at the .223 with a fast twist barrel capable of handling 70-80 gr lead-filled bullets and slightly lighter all copper items.

-- handirifle's second post clarifies a bit (came in while I was typing.)

If one already has a .308 but wants to stay with the .30 caliber, the next step up should be at least the .300 Win Mag -- very few will question the adequacy of that cartridge in the hands of an experienced marksman using appropriate bullets.

[handirifle]

Thanks for the replies.

Yea, as I clarified this is a hunting weapon, and not viewing it as a world coming to an end thing, I am retired, and love to hunt, but the costs of things are going north quickly, so I am thinking of stockpiling things I would need most often for hunting. The law here requires non lead bullets, but as I said, IF we were hungry, I'd take my chances. I know without a doubt my 223 bolt gun could easily put meat on the table. If I were really hungry, not even a black bear would be safe from it. I am NOT opposed to head shots, and have no doubts about the little 223's effectiveness on a bear, in a head or neck shot. THAT said, my preference would be for a caliber that offered better choices in normal hunting scenarios.

A friend of mine, is taking me to Utah this winter, for a cow elk hunt, and in trade I am taking him on a CA mule deer hunt in Aug/Sept. I shot last years mulie with my 308 at a 180yd (lasered) shot from sitting on a hillside. Given a steady rest, on an elk size animal, I know I am capable of a 400yd shot without adverse conditions, like high winds etc. My first choice is 250 or less, but if 400 were the ONLY chance between going home empty or coolers full of meat, then I would take it.

[Aircraftmech76]

If I read between your lines, are you suggesting the 300Wm, since the '06 and 08 are so close?


You could say that. I don't own any magnum calibers, as I'm not convinced the effect on game is worth the extra expense (dies, brass, new weapon, recoil, etc.) over a standard velocity 30 caliber. I have noticed over the years, that people and game are very similar in the way they react to being shot. Some people get hit, get all kinds of pissed, and get back up on their feet ready to hand out a whoopin. Some people on the other hand, get slightly grazed and go down thinking they are gonna die right that minute. There are game animals that go down without a blink of the eye when shot with a 30-30, and others that will go for miles when hit with a 300 Weatherby. I'm convinced that the animal itself has more of an influence on the quick outcome of a good hit as opposed to caliber (or velocity, in this case). Case in point: the long range videos of guys hitting elk at 1000 yards, and having them just literally drop right where they stand. A bullet, at that range, has lost a LOT of velocity, and even the 308 is gonna have more velocity at 400 yards that a WIN MAG does at that range. I just ran the #'s in my Sierra Infinity program, and the 308 with a 180 grain Barnes has 2017 FPS velocity at 400 yards, whereas the WIN MAG, with the same bullet at that same range, only has 109 FPS faster velocity. Will the game notice 109 FPS? That's up for you to decide. In either case, both velocity and energy are the same in both calibers by 650 yards...
If it were me, I'd spend all that extra money in more components and practice. By the time you pick up another rifle, optics, dies, brass, and primers, you are easily over 1K into that rifle. You could buy a whole lot of stuff with 1K. I'd spend it on a good laser-rangefinder if I didn't have one already.

Kevin

[handirifle]

Thanks, good points. The cost of the rifle is not a big concern since its just a rebarrel of an existing receiver. Currently it wears a 338 WM barrel, but I think that might be overkill, plus its one more caliber to stock bullets for. Not doubting your efforts, but I do find it hard to believe a 308/180gr combo and a 300 WM combo end up the same at 400.
from my research the 300 will have at 600 what the 308 has at 400. The 308 can only launch a 180 at about 2600 compared to the WM's 3000:

[Aircraftmech76]

Not doubting your efforts, but I do find it hard to believe a 308/180gr combo and a 300 WM combo end up the same at 400.

I mentioned that they reach each other at 650, not 400. These are the charts from my Sierra Infinity comparing the two loads mentioned. They both utilize the Barnes MRX 180 grain as loaded by Federal.

Velocity

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a271/rvpilot76/180BarnesMRXvelocity.jpg

Energy

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a271/rvpilot76/180BarnesMRXenergy.jpg

Drop

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a271/rvpilot76/180BarnesMRXdrop.jpg

Drift

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a271/rvpilot76/180BarnesMRXdrift.jpg

So as you can see, when put on paper, the 300 Win Mag really isn't all that spectacular, unless you fire it at night... ;D

The more I get along in years, the more I realize that the magnum calibers really aren't all that necessary. You don't even want to see what my 6.5/130 grain bullets do to a 300 Win Mag... :o

Kevin

[Senderofan]

Thanks, good points. The cost of the rifle is not a big concern since its just a rebarrel of an existing receiver. Currently it wears a 338 WM barrel, but I think that might be overkill, plus its one more caliber to stock bullets for. Not doubting your efforts, but I do find it hard to believe a 308/180gr combo and a 300 WM combo end up the same at 400.
from my research the 300 will have at 600 what the 308 has at 400. The 308 can only launch a 180 at about 2600 compared to the WM's 3000:


My .308 sends 185 gr. VLD's down range at just under 2900 fps. You didn't comment on barrel length...but I've got a 30" tube. So in my case...my .308 performs very much like a .30-06...I'm certain hand loaders get higher velocities out of the 300WM.

Wayne

[Senderofan]

I agree with Kevin...just check out the 6.5mm bullets. My .260 Improved just amazes me how flat it shoots....and it bucks the wind pretty decent as well.

Wayne

[ellobo]

People always wonder why a deer hit in the vitals will run for miles while another will drop in his tracks. There is a simple explanation. Adrenalin. If a deer or any other animal has been spooked to think something isnt right, his adrenalin will flow. When hit he may go down but get up and run. Unless it is a head or neck shot of course. The animal with no adrenalin flowing will in all probability drop where he stands. Thats why an animal shot at distance is too far away to be spooked in most cases and drops.

El Lobo

[handirifle]

Well looking at the remington web site, at their own factory loads, when both the 308 and 300 wm are loaded with the 180gr Core lokt Ultra bullet, there is a much larger difference than you show. They show remaining velocities for the 308 is 1818 and for the 300 is 2093. That is 275fps difference, quite a bit, to me, whereas the '06 only has 1880. These are all three using the same bullet, loaded by the same company.

How an identical bullet fired at over 300fps difference from the muzzle, can reduce that to 109fps in 400 yds is not practical. Given all circumstance being equal, the bullets will slow at a nearly identical rate. I do understand a higher MV also has higher resistance but that still takes some time to bleed off. Remington shows their MV of the 180gr 308 load at 2620, and the 30-06 at 2700, and the 300Wm at 2960. Now if you were comparing the '06 to the '08 I could understand. Those two are close, but the 300 has always had a large jump over both. This is comparing factory loads from same length barrels and similar conditions.

Now if you are listing higher 308 velocities, you might be referring to a longer barrel than they used.

And the 6.5 is not a consideration. I want to REDUCE the number of bullet calibers I have to stock. That's why this whole thing came about. I'll use the 308 for hunting when I am reasonably certain the ranges will be close, or if it is for deer or smaller. I KNOW the 308 can and has taken a lot of elk, but I will either step up to the 30-06 or 300Wm if I am after elk.

If I wanted to keep a lot of calibers, I'd keep the 338Wm barrels it has on it. That may end up being what i do, if everyone is saying there's not enough difference between the 300 and '06. Aww so darn confusing!

[handirifle]

Folks I totally get why NO cartridge always "drops em in their tracks", I get it, I do not expect that to be the case, no matter the cartridge, but neither do I want to use a round whose performance would be questionable at my self imposed limit of 400yds. According to the rem web site the 300 has a major edge over the '06 at that distance, as far as energy goes, with over 300ftlbs of advantage to the 300Wm. And as far as farther distances are concerned, I will never shoot one farther so it is of no consequence.

I guess I am talking myself into the 300 here or maybe keep the 338, except that either one is a bit of overkill on a mule deer at 180yds. Our deer are small. Any one of the cartridges mentioned here would work on them. Of these 2, the 300 has an edge in the trajectory.

[handirifle]

OK, call me crazy, but I think I am going to go with the '06. Not what I was saying in my last posts, I know, but when I consider ALL the aspects of what I want, not just the Ultra Ubber performance, but components and powder, etc, AND their costs, it keeps going back to the '06.

Barnes has just released their new LRX line of bullets, to compete with the likes of the VLD line up, but with a HUGE improvement over Barnes' previous offerings. The LRX is designed to open at 1600fps min, as compared to the TTSX and TSX at around 2100. They offer it in a 175gr and something over 200 (not sure) in the 30 cal, and the 175 would give me a slight improvement in velocity over the 180, and probable a very slight improvement in trajectory, but I will not have to worry about the bullet opening when I need it.

I will most likely go with a 24" barrel though, to reduce the difference between the '06 and its big brother. Any more and I'm toting too much weight around the hills.

I got to reading the thread about the 6.5 bullet for elk, and there's darn good arguments for the less than magnum cartridges.

Thanks all for the goo input and opinions, appreciated every one of them.

[psharon97]

Kinda sounds like ya got your mind made up. You already have a 308 which kinda defeats having the 30-06 and a 308. The next choices would either be the 300 winchester magnum or the 300 weatherby magnum. The winchester is going to be more common IMO.

[Aircraftmech76]

Well looking at the remington web site, at their own factory loads, when both the 308 and 300 wm are loaded with the 180gr Core lokt Ultra bullet, there is a much larger difference than you show. Except that, as mentioned, I was using the Barnes bullet, not a semi-blunt Remington Core-Lokt They show remaining velocities for the 308 is 1818 and for the 300 is 2093. That is 275fps difference, quite a bit, to me, whereas the '06 only has 1880. These are all three using the same bullet, loaded by the same company.

How an identical bullet fired at over 300fps difference from the muzzle, can reduce that to 109fps in 400 yds is not practical. It sounds impractical, but trust me, it is. The faster round has more drag than the slower one. A projectiles drag increase is equal to the square of the increase of the round. Example: if you increase the speed by double, there is four times more drag. I learned this in my physics class when I went to my aircraft mechanic school. Another example of a slower round holding onto its velocity better than a faster round is my 300 AAC Blackout: it launches the 208 AMAX at 1050 FPS. It loses less than 100 FPS by the time it has reached 300 yards.Given all circumstance being equal, the bullets will slow at a nearly identical rate. I do understand a higher MV also has higher resistance but that still takes some time to bleed off. Remington shows their MV of the 180gr 308 load at 2620, and the 30-06 at 2700, and the 300Wm at 2960. Now if you were comparing the '06 to the '08 I could understand. Those two are close, but the 300 has always had a large jump over both. This is comparing factory loads from same length barrels and similar conditions.

Now if you are listing higher 308 velocities, you might be referring to a longer barrel than they used.

And the 6.5 is not a consideration. I want to REDUCE the number of bullet calibers I have to stock. That's why this whole thing came about. I'll use the 308 for hunting when I am reasonably certain the ranges will be close, or if it is for deer or smaller. I KNOW the 308 can and has taken a lot of elk, but I will either step up to the 30-06 or 300Wm if I am after elk.

If I wanted to keep a lot of calibers, I'd keep the 338Wm barrels it has on it. That may end up being what i do, if everyone is saying there's not enough difference between the 300 and '06. Aww so darn confusing! Those darn ammo companies' marketing departments are good at their jobs :D

[handirifle]

Aircraftmech76
My point was I was comparing apples to apples, as you were too, just different apples. I do understand the increased drag, as another example, if a race car is doing 190mps, it takes nearly DOUBLE the horsepower to get it to 200, that is a result of the ever increasing drag at higher speed. And yes maybe at 600+ it matters but at 300-400 it doesn't.

I did not realize that bullet was so blunt though, but even so, the same physics still apply, the same forces are working against both bullets regardless of profile.


psharon97

Well, I thought it was, but having the 300 still sounds like a fun idea. Another question, what kind of accuracy results have folks gotten with the 300 loaded to '06 levels? I will post this question over at the reloading forum as well. Looking at Hodgdons data, that is starting load levels for the 300, and pretty equal to the '06 in velocity and powder usage.

[Aircraftmech76]

Just trying to be helpful. If you have any #'s you like me to run for you, just ask. I'm here to serve...

Kevin

[handirifle]

Just trying to be helpful. If you have any #'s you like me to run for you, just ask. I'm here to serve...

Kevin


You don't happen to have a BC calculator program do you? ;) That's for another, unrelated project, a lead free bullet for my 375 Winchester.

[psharon97]

I've never personally loaded for the 300 win mag so I can't comment on reduced loads for that caliber. However, using reduced loads should be used with caution for the magnums.