A one caliber question

[Aircraftmech76]

Just trying to be helpful. If you have any #'s you like me to run for you, just ask. I'm here to serve...

Kevin


You don't happen to have a BC calculator program do you? ;) That's for another, unrelated project, a lead free bullet for my 375 Winchester.


I do not, sorry...

Kevin

[handirifle]

Psharon
Sorry for the misnomer but they are not "reduced" loads per se they are listed starting level loads, as per Hodgdons latest manual. I just know that sometimes the big cases perform better with higher charge densities.

[sniper15545]

I've been using both for years +1 for the 300 win mag. ;D

[handirifle]

Sniper
I assume you mean "both" being the 308 and 300wm?

[barrel-nut]

Not doubting your efforts, but I do find it hard to believe a 308/180gr combo and a 300 WM combo end up the same at 400.

I mentioned that they reach each other at 650, not 400. These are the charts from my Sierra Infinity comparing the two loads mentioned. They both utilize the Barnes MRX 180 grain as loaded by Federal.

Velocity

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a271/rvpilot76/180BarnesMRXvelocity.jpg

Energy

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a271/rvpilot76/180BarnesMRXenergy.jpg

Drop

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a271/rvpilot76/180BarnesMRXdrop.jpg

Drift

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a271/rvpilot76/180BarnesMRXdrift.jpg

So as you can see, when put on paper, the 300 Win Mag really isn't all that spectacular, unless you fire it at night... ;D

The more I get along in years, the more I realize that the magnum calibers really aren't all that necessary. You don't even want to see what my 6.5/130 grain bullets do to a 300 Win Mag... :o

Kevin


Sorry, Kevin, but this just doesn't sound right. I ran some numbers on KAC's Bulletflight Military version ballistic calculator, using the same Barnes 180 gr MRX bullet. I'm not sure of the exact muzzle velocities involved, so I used 2600 for the .308, and 3000 for the .300WM. Here's what I got, at a range of 650 yds:

.300wm vel.- 1777. Energy - 1262 Drop-95.6" Drift(5mph)-14.0

.308win vel.- 1493. Energy - 891 Drop- 134" Drift- 17.0

There is simply no way the .308 will overtake the .300WM, in any category, at any distance. Ain't gonna happen. And I'm a huge .308 fan, and I neither own nor desire a .300, so I have no bias to the larger round. Just pure physics here...

Also, if your assertion were true, why would the Army be in the process of switching from the 7.62NATO to the .300WM as their preferred long range sniper round?

Not pickin' on ya man, just that your statement doesn't hold water.. Maybe you entered a wrong value somewhere? It's easy to do, I've done it lotsa times. ;);)

[barrel-nut]

By the way, I ran these #'s all the way out to 1500 yds. The .300 comes out ahead every time, in every category. Granted, the difference between the two diminishes as you get farther out. But the .300 stays on top.

[JASmith]

Barrel-Nut is on the right track.

Those trajectories are both shown with the 180 gr Barnes MRX -- there is no way a slower muzzle velocity will overtake the SAME bullet at range.

Was there a typo and the .308 actually had a VLD or similar high BC bullet? If, so 'taint apples-to-apples.

[handirifle]

Boy I was starting to think I might be wrong about this, glad you guys chimed in. Maybe the comparison was against a Barnes MRX in the 300 and an LRX in the 308. Now those are possibilities. The LRX is new from barnes, but the closest weight to the 180 in the LRX is a 175. Next up is a 200gr. The LRX is Barnes entry into the increasingly popular long range hunting, and is thier competitor in the VLD category.

The 175gr LRX has a BC of .508, while the 180gr MRX, I am not sure, but I bet it's in the .450-480 range. It's possible, I spose.

[barrel-nut]

Handirifle, the 180 MRX BC is .473. And you're right, in a true apples to apples comparison, (exact same bullet), the one launched faster, stays faster, all the way until they take a dirt nap.

In this scenario, if you set up a .308 200 yds down range, and could somehow safely fire it at the instant that the .300's bullet passed by it from 200 yds uprange, their trajectories would be identical from that point forward.
To put this another way, the .308 with this particular bullet is equivalent at the muzzle, to the .300WM at 200 yds. (actually about 192yds, but who's counting?) They would be essentially identical from that point forward. 192 yds. is the point at which the .300WM's 3000fps muzzle velocity has dropped to 2600 fps, which is the .308's mv in our little scenario.

The point of all this nonsense is that when firing identical bullets, a slower round is never going to "overtake" a faster round. Now if you start comparing apples to oranges, well, that's a whole new ballgame. ;)

[handirifle]

Yup

[Stockrex]

just pick any one caliber you like and buy few rounds of cheap euro factory loads, unless you are shooting 1000 rounds a month/qtr/year, your cost to drive to your hunting land will far exceed the $2 in ammo you "might" shoot.

what is the reasonable stash? 5 year stash of 30-06? your kids might be shooting with them unless you participate in some CMP M1 shoots ;D

[barrel-nut]

For the specific purposes you listed, which if I recall correctly were :
Hunting big game-pigs and up;
300-400yds max self imposed range;
Ready availability of reloading components;
Did you mention shootabilty/recoil? Can't remember....

Anyway, to me, of the choices you listed the .30-06 is the clear standout for all these practical reasons.

On the other hand, if you just really WANTED a .300, then it would meet all these needs pretty well too...
But I'd get an '06.

[handirifle]

stockrex
Not really wanting to "stash" ammo per se, but stock up on components so I can always afford to shoot, and yes with gas looming towards $5 a gallon here, you are right, but being on fixed income, I come nowhere near close to keeping up on costs of this stuff.

barrelnut
The '06 does keep coming back to my mind too, especially after running the numbers with the new Barnes LRX bullets. A standard loading of their 175gr will make it effective, and above their min opening velocity of 1600fps, well beyond 600yds, which is well beyond where I would ever expect to shoot.

I was hoping to get a 24" barrel and stretch it out a little to close the gap on the big 300.

Am getting no takers on my 338 to 300 swap so will wait it out. A couple guys are interested in buying, but it seems I AKWAYS lose money when I sell this stuff. Tired of doing that. I have my original 22" barrel as a standby though.

Might just have to get some of those LRX bullets and see how they shoot.

[Stockrex]

handirifle, I hear you bro, it bleeds to shot anything bigger than a .22 if you don't reload.
I went through the same struggles in decision making being new big cal shooter (air rifles at 10 meters is all I did before).
"stashing" ammo might be an attractive option if you consider total capital outlay for reloading, hence my question how many rounds are you going shoot every year?
My main go to gun for mid/large hunt is a browning bar in 30-06, I was able to get partitions for about $22 a box (heck of deal), if you reload 30-06 with partitions without the brass cost, it might be close to what I paid for a round with the cost of the tools apportioned out.
now, you can get prvi 30-06 SP ammo for $14 (plus shipping), that is $.70 a round,
Assuming that I can save $.25 a round by reloading, that is 250$ per 1000 rounds,
In my case, the 5 boxes of partitions will probably last me till I check into a nursing home :)

[handirifle]

Yea, one BIG issue here is our morons in the state assembly passed a law last fall, that Gov Brown signed, (big surprise) that prohibits us buying ammo over the net, cause dealers have to see face to face proof of age, and as far as I know there is no way to do that over the net, yet.

Anyway, am a reloader, and have been for decades, and have my dies. presses etc., so that part isn't a problem, and CA also requires lead free ammo to hunt. SOooo the partition is out, hence why I was commenting on the LRX earlier.

As for number of rounds, counting working up koads, practice, and hunting, maybe a couple hundred a year. If these MRX loads turn out good, that number will drop. I need to fins a do all bullet and powder, stock up on em, and just go with it.

I think my old 22" barrel ,ight be a bit worn, and if so, I will save my $$$ and try to get a nice 24" fluted, to cut down on weight. I love having lots of calibers available, but costs (not necessarily just ammo, but all things cut into the budget) are going through the roof, and I can't keep up with them all.

[barrel-nut]

Handi, I'd consider a lighter LRX(150gr?) because all-copper bullets are longer in profile, as well as tougher, than a lead-core bullet of the same weight and diameter; this gives the LRX a higher BC than a 150gr lead bullet. You could push it a lot faster than the 175, and basically it would behave like a larger lead bullet, but with a flatter trajectory. Just my .02.

[handirifle]

To my knowledge, the 30 cal LRX only comes in 175 and 200gr. I ran the ballistics through my software and the number were impressive, even starting out at only 2700. What I REALLY like about the design of the LRX is the min opening velocity, according to Barnes, is only 1600fps. The TTSX min is 2000, and the TSX min is 2100. That's a huge improvement in my eyes.

[barrel-nut]

I agree, that's impressive. I didn't know they didn't make a lighter version; sounds like its not needed. That 175 is interesting for sure!

[efw]

30-06 or 308 for sure.

Personally, I absolutely LOVE the Springfield.

300 Win Mag is most certainly NOT an "economic downturn cartridge;" just compare the price of a box of ammo to the '06! There really is nothing that an 300 WM will do that a Springfield won't do just as well, particularly at the ranges that most of us get 99.9999999% of our shots at (<300yds).

[handirifle]

Yea, my original quest for all this was for a max of 400yds but figuring most, if not all my shots would in reality, be at 300 or less. I'm gonna swap back to my 30-06 factory 22" barrel, just to get the loads going, and try to save my pennies to get a 24" barrel. I could get an A&B right now, but no one have them for Savages anymore.

The LRX, on paper seems like a perfect bullet. If my rifle likes them I will have to hoard a supply. It looks like Barnes discontinued the MRX line, too pricey I guess. Looking at my Point Blank software, the 175gr LRX, with a MV of only 2600, holds above 1500ft lbs of energy out past 400yds, and doesn't reach 1600fps till near 700, so it ought to be real effective.