Very Rough Bore-Action Necessary?

[Kawabuggy]

Hello everyone. I bought a Savage 12FV a while back. I got the gun used. The gun came with a raised cheek piece that precluded running a cleaning rod down the tube from the action end. That explained why the gun had NEVER been cleaned before I got it. Ha ha.

When I bought the gun, it had copper-orange streaks running down the barrel from the muzzle back as far as you could see. I looked at it and thought-this barrel looks like a barber pole!

Anyway, after buying the gun, I removed the cheek-piece and proceeded to clean the gun using a bore guide and KG-12 copper remover. I would coat the barrel and let it sit for 10 minutes and then swab it with clean patches. I did this for 2 days and could never get all of the copper out. Well, after getting out as much as I could, I took the gun to the range, and I was more than impressed. This is the BEST shooting rifle I have ever shot. It came with a cheap no-name brand fixed 20 power scope with 50MM objective, and target turrets.

After sighting it in for myself, I proceeded to shoot tiny little bug-holes with the FIRST hand-loads that I tried. I got bored with shooting paper and when it was time to change targets, I was setting range brass on the wood with just the shell head facing back towards the shooting bench. You guessed it-I shot each one of them off with a single bullet. This gun is that accurate.

Anyway, after shooting it that last time, I brought it home and cleaned it again. Still the copper streaks are present.

Friday at work, I was reading about electronic barrel cleaning and decided to build one myself. I picked up the parts on my lunch break, and after 10 minutes with a soldering iron, I was in business.

I remembered how badly coppered this gun was so I started with it. It took 40 minutes of running the home-made cleaner to bust all of the copper loose. After that, I swabbed the bore with regular Hoppes #9 to remove what was left in the bore. The barrel came out SPOTLESS. I can see clearly now why this barrel coppers so bad. The machining inside the barrel looks like a metal file! Obviously whatever tool they were using to drill the barrel was chattering something fierce, and has some uneven cutting edges on it. The barrel with the copper out looks TRASHED! At the muzzle end, with the naked eye, you can clearly see the upset metal.

Now my questions... This gun absolutely shoots! Should I be worried about this problem? Or, should I just shoot it again and let it copper up again. With the barrel as rough as it is, I suspect that one shot is all it is going to take to coat the bore again. Should I just leave some copper in there during regular cleaning, or should I use the electronic cleaner to remove it each time? I don't want to do anything to upset the accuracy. I've seen the bullets that are coated with sanding grit that are supposed to smooth the bore, but have read that this route is not a good idea as it wears on the rifling. Any ideas? Should I just leave it alone?

[venatic]

I have a Savage Predator .223 that sounds like the barrel could be its ugly twin sister BUT it sure does shoot. I just squirt some foaming cleaner and let her soak a while and get what I can out and call it good. I used JB bore paste when I first got it to get most of the copper out and now clean with the foam every 15 to 20 rounds to keep it from getting too bad.

[Uncle Jack]

Think something like lapping bullets might help?

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=974155

I've heard good reports. Doesn't seem to adversely affect accuracy, but does make cleaning a lot easier.

[Kawabuggy]

Those bullets are the ones that I was referring to. Several people say to NOT use them as they will really wear on the throat of the rifle, and also on the lands.

Will just shooting regular bullets eventually smooth the bore some if all the copper is removed after each range session?

[BobT]

If it shoots that well I would be happy with it as is. IMHO don't fix it if it ain't broke!

Bob

[aorelup]

If it shoots that well I would be happy with it as is. IMHO don't fix it if it ain't broke!

Bob

+1 there.

Have you shot it since getting all the copper out? Curious if you had a decrease in accuracy.

[Three44s]

If you are contemplating fire lapping ....... get this book:


http://www.beartoothbullets.com/bulletselect/index.htm


The best fifteen bucks you'll ever spend!


Three 44s

[Dinosdeuce]

If you can hit empty casings, shoot it till the accuracy degrades. I use to clean after every range session. Now I only clean after 400 rounds. That is when my rifle starts loosing accuracy.

[Afy]

I clean thoroughlya after each range trip. My Savage 12 was bought used, (.22-250) and the guy who sold it told me that I would need a new barrel.
I put a couple of patches soaked with KG-12 and left the gun alone for 24 hours. Brought the copper right out, and will shoot a consistent sub .5 MoA with 52 grain SMK's. I have left it alone for the time being.

With KG 12 let it sit overnight to get most of the copper out. I wouldnt bother with trying to lap the factory barrel. When it stops shooting well, swap it for an aftermarket one.

[pd721el]

I had a rem 700 Mtn in 308 that had a similar barrel. I would shoot 3 shots and you could see the copper running down the grooves. The problem with my barrels is that any and all accuracy would go away at about shot 6-7. I used Tubbs 20 loaded Final Finish rounds. It did help with some of the fouling and I was able to shoot 15-20 rounds defore the accuracy started to go away. It also cleaned a little easier. I ended up with a Broughton barrel in 260 rem and love it.
I would shoot your barrel and see at what point the fouling affects the accuracy. If the number of rounds between clean and the accuracy leaving are a large enough number to live with shot it and forget about it. Clean it when needed. If not you can look at Final Finish or a new tube. Good Luck.

[Eric in NC]

As others have said - you have a great shooting rifle. Leave it alone. Shoot till accuracy falls off (may be 25, 100, 300 rounds???) then clean it. Other than that leave it be. Just because there is copper in the bore doesn't mean there is a problem. 55,000 PSI and 3,000+ FPS of soft metal on harder metal will tend to leave deposits.

Leave well enough alone.

[Specter65]

When it comes to removing copper fouling from the bore, the best product I've come across is BreakFree Foam bore cleaner. It's non-toxic and odorless and does an exceptional job of removing copper from the bore. Just spray it into the bore, let it sit for 15-20 minutes then swab out with patches until they come out clean. I have a model 10 which fouls with copper quite easily and this stuff gets it all out of the rifling.

[Bad Water Bill]

Like Eric said

Leave well enough alone

[jr19703]

When it comes time to clean the copper, Bore tech Eliminator. Go at with a powder solvent then finish with the bore tech. I have used this after other so called copper solvents and was still removing copper.

[dolomite_supafly]

I have a Stevens 200 in 223 that has had a lot of work done to it but it still has the original barrel. I thought the same thing when I saw the bore, it definately does look like chatter marks. When I first saw this I thought to myslef there is no way this is going to shoot but it does.

With mine it doesn't seem to affect it at all. It has been over a month and 250+ rounds since the last cleaning. I normally just boresnake it about every 25-50 rounds. I am sure it is coppered up but it doesn't seem to affect it to much.

If it is shooting as well as you say then I would not do anything until accuracy starts to drop off. You may need to do quite a bit of shooting to lay down the same amount of copper as it had before the thorough cleaning. During the fouling process it might shoot like crap for a period of time. I have a few rimfires that if you clean them very well they need a lot of shooting before they settle back into their groove.

My whole rule of thumb on everything I own is shoot it and only clean it when accuracy starts to degrade. I will wipe down the outside of the firearms and inspect the inside but rarely do an in depth cleaning unless there is a noticeable, repeatable problem with accuracy.

Dolomite

[Kawabuggy]

Thanks for all of the help everyone.

To those who commented with the different types of cleaning products-I built an electronic barrel cleaner. With this electronic cleaner, all I have to do is set it up and let it run then swab out the loose stuff when it is finished. At this point, after using the electronic cleaner, it takes me just 2 passes with a patch & Hoppes #9 just to push out the gook, and then a clean dry patch to soak up the remaining solvent, and then a final patch with just a little oil for the now bare-steel bore as a rust preventative. That is the entire cleaning regimen. No more scrubbing.

Now that this barrel is down to bare steel, I'll take it back to the range to shoot it to see if the accuracy has been affected. My guess is that if anything has changed, it will correct itself pretty quickly with that sand-paper bore shredding the bullets as they pass.

I forgot to mention it in my original post, but this gun is a .243 w/26" varmint contour barrel. In looking at the action with the bolt removed, even the inside of the action is very roughly machined.

[Slowpoke Slim]

My last 2 Savages have been just like yours, one is my BVSS (in 22-250), which I re barreled with a McGowen, and my daughter's lefty weather warrior (in 243). Both look like they were machined with an axe. My buddy's 204 had a very pronounced bad spot that started about 6 inches from the muzzle and went all the way to the muzzle. It now wears a McGowen bbl as well. I don't know what's going on over at Savage, but something has definitely changed with their barrel process.

My BVSS was very accurate for 5 shots, fairly accurate for the next 10 shots, so-so accurate for another 5 shots, then out the window shooting shotgun patterns from there on. It would take me hours to scrub all the fouling out with JB's bore paste. Butch's bore shine or Shooters Choice wouldn't even touch it. I grew to hate that rifle and stopped shooting it. I finally bit the bullet and bought a McGowen bbl from Northland. Now it's a "proper" rifle again. I can easily shoot 30-50 rounds between swabbing without any accuracy issues, and 2 or 3 wet patches with Butch's and it's clean again and ready to go.

My daughter's weather warrior is probably the roughest barrel I've ever seen in my life (and that's saying a lot, I've looked through a lot of barrels). I can't believe that a modern manufacturer is putting these barrels out as a finished product. This one is bad, really bad. Now that her Javelina hunt is past, it's coming off, and I have a Sinarms 257 Roberts barrel sitting here ready to go on.

The strange thing is my Stevens 223 was bought between the BVSS and the weather warrior, and the barrel on it is "normal"?

I have talked to other Savage owners, both online, and at the range I regularly shoot at. Some of the other "regulars" also shoot Savages. I know I'm not the only one seeing these crappy barrels. I'm not at all trying to bash Savage here, but I KNOW they used to make better barrels than this...

Maybe we could run another topic with a survey of "bad" factory Savage barrels? Does someone on this forum have an ear of Savage management? Maybe we could CONSTRUCTIVELY give feedback that would be useful to getting Savage to fix the problem?

What say you Savage forum members?

[358Hammer]

1. If a business is not made aware of a problem they can't fix it. If they have heard of the problem and the problem exists still, then keep passing the information along.
2. They always want to look at the problem! In my case they said there was nothing wrong!
3. I have already passed this thread along so lets see if they are paying attention.

Neal

[Slowpoke Slim]

Neal,

I would be willing to ship the 3 factory barrels I've taken off to someone at Savage if it will help. The 3 I have all seem to have the same type of machining errors, in that it looks like chatter during the barrel boring process (I could be wrong there, as I am NOT a machinist). The 243 barrel is the worst. I would not be interested in shipping back the entire rifle, but I would ship the barrel(s).

The last thing I would want is to turn this into a "Savage bashing" subject. I really like my Savages, I just wish I didn't have to replace the barrel when I bought one.

[358Hammer]

I am thinking most on this Forum are Savage fans. I would hope that they agree that to fix a problem Savage has to be aware of the problem.

I sent a barrel only back and was not happy with the response. SO lapped the crappy bore and its good to go.
Looked like what you are describing. Looked like someone used a tapped in the bore.

Neal