Headspacing on Fireformed case?

[rattletrap1970]

Hello, Quick question.
I have a Savage Model 12 BTCSS. I replaced the stock recoil lug with a heavier, ground version. Which of course required removing the barrel. Prior to this project I did the following:

1. Full length re-sized some .223 brass, loaded it and fired it in the rifle.
2. Then I neck turned the brass, prepped it in the usual fashion (trued primer pockets, case trimmed to -.020 of max length, chamfered inside and out, cleaned flash hole, etc, etc).

Now I have trued-up brass that was fire-formed to my rifle.

I used this brass to headspace the rifle when putting the barrel back on. I set it so when the bolt goes into battery there is a little tension (a drag if you will) as the bolt closes fully.

In terms of safety as well as accuracy, am I better off with this method or using a "Go-Gauge".

Oh, Happy Thanksgiving all.

[DGD6MM]

This should work, but you need to check the headspace with the same piece of brass. This time put two layers of scotchtape on the end of the case and trim nicely around the rim, chamber the case and you should have a tighter feel trying to close the bolt. If you use gorilla strength I'm sure you will be able to roll the bolt closed, but pay attention to the difference of resistance and the more of these you do the more familiar this will become. This is how I do mine and I'm sure others on this site do it similar and some more hi-tech, but this works for me.

[Nor Cal Mikie]

First off, you know someone will jump in here and say NO, NO, NO, you can't do it that way. You "MUST" use a Go-No Gauge! ::)
By using full length sized brass to set the headspace, your brass won't have much room to grow when it's fired. No brass growth makes for longer brass life.
I'll use the gauges to get close then reset if needed to a "full length" sized case. You might only be talking 1/16 or less of a turn on the barrel.
I've got brass that's been fired 15 to 20 times and still going strong just by bumping the shoulder back .002 and running it through a body once in a while.
There's a chance that "Factory" loaded ammo won't fit in your chamber but if you roll your own you won't have a problem. YMMV. ;)

[rattletrap1970]

The rifle shot well right out of the box. I was easily able to shoot 1" and slightly smaller groups at 200 yards. But it bugged me that the action was not pillar bedded properly or glass bedded at all.

So before I glass bedded it with Devcon 10110 I replaced the recoil lug with a better one (ground flat and thicker than original )and relieved around the glued-in pillars so they were actually doing something other than being a liner for screws.

I want to extract every little bit of accuracy this rifle is capable of. So, when I was putting the barrel back on it, it was my belief that if I used a completely prepped case that was actually fire-formed to the rifle before removal of the barrel it would put the barrel back almost exactly where I started.

I suppose I was looking for an affirmation that this method would do that.

I'm topping the rifle with a Millett 6-25x60mm (35mm Tube) LRS-1 scope on a Ferrell base. I will post results when after I go to the range.

[markr]

Hello, Quick question.
I have a Savage Model 12 BTCSS. I replaced the stock recoil lug with a heavier, ground version. Which of course required removing the barrel. Prior to this project I did the following:

1. Full length re-sized some .223 brass, loaded it and fired it in the rifle.
2. Then I neck turned the brass, prepped it in the usual fashion (trued primer pockets, case trimmed to -.020 of max length, chamfered inside and out, cleaned flash hole, etc, etc).

Now I have trued-up brass that was fire-formed to my rifle.

I used this brass to headspace the rifle when putting the barrel back on. I set it so when the bolt goes into battery there is a little tension (a drag if you will) as the bolt closes fully.

In terms of safety as well as accuracy, am I better off with this method or using a "Go-Gauge".

Oh, Happy Thanksgiving all.


I see that you have posted this question on br.com as well. Good thinking on your part to get suggestions/answers from different planes of consciousness. Many of the guys there are superbly qualified gunsmiths of the highest order and safety is their main concern, with accuracy being second. For any of them to answer with a definitive "yes" would go against the grain of safety.
Many people replace barrels on their Savage rifles and others by the method that you described "I used this brass to headspace the rifle when putting the barrel back on. I set it so when the bolt goes into battery there is a little tension (a drag if you will) as the bolt closes fully." and it has worked fine and with no ill effects. However, you are attempting to use "feel" as your gauge for headspace which is probably the most critical dimension on a firearm with regard to safety, It is my opinion that anyone installing barrels on a firearm should at least use a "no-go" gauge to insure against excess headspace thus potentially saving life and limb...literally!

[rattletrap1970]

I generally don't cross post if I can help it, but, I figured the Benchrest guys know accuracy, and the guys here know the Savage guns real well (not that they don't know accuracy also). I was really shooting for what would give me the best accuracy and if possible the best support for the brass as to limit the stretch and thus the stretch.

The no-go gauge would probably be a good idea, but I had thought that if the bolt didn't close with a thin piece of scotch tape on the cartridge base I would be right there.

[markr]

I suppose that idea would work "I was really shooting for what would give me the best accuracy and if possible the best support for the brass as to limit the stretch and thus the stretch". Measue the thickness of a piece of scotch tape just for your own information and remember that scotch tape will deform (compress) very easily and give you a potentially false reading. Be aware that as the barrel nut is tightened on a Savage action, the headspace increases. The least stretch of your brass will come when there is a "slight" crush fit say .002. There is really no suitable replacement for real gauges though and if cost is a factor...what are your eyes or face or hands worth?

[DGD6MM]

Teele1 and I bought .308 Tactical rifles at the same time, they both shot great out of the box brand spanking new. Later we changed the lugs on both rifles but just before we took the barrels off we took Sammi spec gauges and checked the headspace. To are surprise the bolt would close on a no-go gauge(both rifles). We then headspaced them off a resized case that had been shot in our own rifles and checked them with a set of go and no-go gauges, everything was fine. This was not the first Savages we had ever changed barrels on. I've got guns that I've built from scratch that have never seen anything other then a piece of brass for a gauge. For your first time you should use Sammi gauges, no one here would want to see someone hurt. In the beginning of your post you asked about safety, buy or borrow a set of gauges and double check yourself, try the tape also and you will see for yourself.

[Apache]

Nor Cal Mikie hit it dead on.

I've got a BUNCH of wildcats........that don't have go or no-go gauges.


Gunsmiths have to do that for legal reasons also, not just for safety....doing your own rig.....that's up to you I guess. ;)


I mean, where you gonna find a set of gauges for a 22x47 Lapua AI anyway....or a 223AI Long.......or a 22x55 Swede Improved.....or a couple others I have? ;) ;D

Another thing that you can do is put a witness mark on the barrel after you get it headspaced so that you can return it to the same position after switching barrels around.

[geargrinder]

I'm with Apache and Nor Cal Mikie.

If you have a full understanding of what you are doing and what is happening, using sized brass is much better than using gauges.

I trust myself more than SAAMI, whoever he is. ;D

[markr]

[quote=geargrinder ]
I'm with Apache and Nor Cal Mikie.

If you have a full understanding of what you are doing and what is happening, using sized brass is much better than using gauges.

I trust myself more than SAAMI, whoever he is. ;D

And....therein lies a big part of the problem
Hillbilly engineering at it's finest... ;)
It is irresponsible at best to suggest to someone out here in cyberspace to set headspace on a 50,000 + psi controlled explosion...the incorrect way , just to save a few dollars!
If there was a reamer made for one of your "wildcats", chances are that there was or could have been go-no go gauges right along side it! I have them for 12 Walker, 14 Walker, 17 Javelina, 17-222 AI, 17-222 Mag AI, 6x47, 6.5x257 Roberts AI just to name a few.
I'm not trying to give you or anyone else here a hard way to go, and please accept my apology in advance if anyone takes it that way! I'm just not an advocate of toolshed gunsmithing, especially just to save a few pennies! The reason...we have yet to develop the technology to replace body parts, at least not with any certainty and definitly not without a lot of pain and suffering.

[Apache]

First off, you know someone will jump in here and say NO, NO, NO, you can't do it that way. You "MUST" use a Go-No Gauge! ::)


As was prophesied by Nor Cal Mikie........ ::)

We're gonna start calling him "Prophet Mikie" ;) ;D

I'll stick to my "hillbilly engineering" and make mine more accurate as well as make the brass last longer.........to each his own though.

Rattletrap1970.......if you need some more help with your "hillbilly engineered" barrel fitting....... just give us'ns a holler...we'ens'll tries ours bestes to helps ya! ;) ;D

YMMV

[geargrinder]

And....therein lies a big part of the problem
Hillbilly engineering at it's finest... ;)
It is irresponsible at best to suggest to someone out here in cyberspace to set headspace on a 50,000 + psi controlled explosion...the incorrect way , just to save a few dollars!
If there was a reamer made for one of your "wildcats", chances are that there was or could have been go-no go gauges right along side it! I have them for 12 Walker, 14 Walker, 17 Javelina, 17-222 AI, 17-222 Mag AI, 6x47, 6.5x257 Roberts AI just to name a few.
I'm not trying to give you or anyone else here a hard way to go, and please accept my apology in advance if anyone takes it that way! I'm just not an advocate of toolshed gunsmithing, especially just to save a few pennies! The reason...we have yet to develop the technology to replace body parts, at least not with any certainty and definitly not without a lot of pain and suffering.


Yep, you're right. I am an engineer. Even got them thar initials behind my name.

Probably a bit hillbilly too. At least enough to not take much offense by yer name callin'.

We are here to arm ourselves with knowledge and confidence, not fear and apprehension.

[DGD6MM]

Well SED Gentlemaen, now if you'll excuse me wyll's I go and swapps a barrel. Now where did I lay that peace of brass and scotch tape?

[BillPa]

Now where did I lay that peace of brass and scotch tape?


Hey Paw..the last I sed'm thays wuz out in that there toolshed. Maw said youse bedder stop mix'n them barrels rond too, ya know ya ain't had no school'n on that stuff. Youse gona shoot yur face off.

[Nor Cal Mikie]

Or at least, poke your eye out! ;D

[markr]

And....therein lies a big part of the problem
Hillbilly engineering at it's finest... ;)
It is irresponsible at best to suggest to someone out here in cyberspace to set headspace on a 50,000 + psi controlled explosion...the incorrect way , just to save a few dollars!
If there was a reamer made for one of your "wildcats", chances are that there was or could have been go-no go gauges right along side it! I have them for 12 Walker, 14 Walker, 17 Javelina, 17-222 AI, 17-222 Mag AI, 6x47, 6.5x257 Roberts AI just to name a few.
I'm not trying to give you or anyone else here a hard way to go, and please accept my apology in advance if anyone takes it that way! I'm just not an advocate of toolshed gunsmithing, especially just to save a few pennies! The reason...we have yet to develop the technology to replace body parts, at least not with any certainty and definitly not without a lot of pain and suffering.


Yep, you're right. I am an engineer. Even got them thar initials behind my name.

Probably a bit hillbilly too. At least enough to not take much offense by yer name callin'.

We are here to arm ourselves with knowledge and confidence, not fear and apprehension.


No offense was meant to you or any others here and I didn't call you or anyone else a hillbilly! I said that using a fired cartridge case as the single and sole way of determining headspace was "hillbilly engineering"...not that there wasn't better verbiage to use such as out house gunsmithing... As an "engineer"...you should be acutely aware that there are right and wrong ways of doing things...and when things are done the short cut way...generally just to save a few pennies, things can and do go wrong...not always, but just often enough to remind us to do things the right way.
What I wrote above was not meant to keep anyone from seeking knowledge and arming themselves with confidence, but rather to help them arm themselves with the confidence to seek the knowledge to do things the right way, the first time.
Many, probably thousands of Savage rifles and others for that matter...have been re-barreled successfully using nothing more than a piece of brass and scotch tape for a headspace gauge...and at least according to this thread there will be several more :)... You nor anyone else here need to take my advice in this matter and I wish you and the others much success and especially safety as you "go onwhicyoubadself"
You guys have a great Thanksgiving...and a safe one too!
Mark

[Apache]

None takin on my part......jus fecthin a bit-o-funnin! ;) ;D


There's always more than one way to skin a cat.....without loosing a finger. ;)

[markr]

None takin on my part......jus fecthin a bit-o-funnin! ;) ;D


There's always more than one way to skin a cat.....without loosing a finger. ;)


Depends on whether the cat is alive or not...at the time of the skinning... ;D

[CJ in WY]

I've noticed over the years that putting a college boy and a hill-billy on a project is about as fun as puttin a couple of pocket gophers in a five gallon pail :o The difference is neither gopher winns ;)
A cat on the other hand is better skinned after it has had its breathing privileges revoked ;D
As for setting the headspace on a Savage/Stevens?? Gauges may be safer, brass may be more accurate but niether are foolproof!
IMHO College boys have a limited perpose, gophers are fun, the best cats are stiff as a board and Scotch tape is my friendhttp://www.websmileys.com/sm/fingers/fing02.gif