110 30-06 to 7mm Rem Mag built project - Brain storm session

[Nandy]

Forum,
Since the deer season is about over I'm starting the planing/budgeting face of this project. What I like to do is present what I want to do and hear the experience from others as far as equipment, procedures and etc... so I can plan this better.

As far as my experience "gun smithing"... I done light work on firearms. I can disassemble every firearm I have to the basic components to clean and put them back. I have polished many triggers, do one barrel replacement on this savage and reload as well. I do all my mechanics (car, atv, boat) and have a degree in electronic engineering. I like to think I am good with my hands and my brain (the days it switches on, lol).

This rifle started as a 110 30-06/synthetic stock/Bushnell scope combo that I bought at Walmart or Kmart about 10 to 12 years ago.

This is how the rifle stands today.
Its a flat rear receiver.
Long action
A&B 30-06 Sporter contour 1-10 26" Barrel (pretty much the same as what came with the rifle)
rifle basix SAV-2 trigger
Choate Varmint stock
LimbSaver Grind to fit recoil pad
Leupold VIII 4.5x10x50mm Illuminated reticle 30mm tube
Leupold 30mm Quick-Release Weaver-Style Rings
Warne 20 MOA Steel 1-Piece Tactical Picatinny-Style Scope Base Savage 110
After market Large Shank Recoil Lug (dont remember the maker but it was $20 some)

At a 100 yds with the A&B 30-06 barrel and reloads this rifle shots under an inch all the time after warming up and the best groups are about .518". The cold barrel initial shot is a bit over an inch from the warm groups. I know this is no a huge deal for hunting which is the primary use of the rifle but it does bugs me. I want to have another caliber to hunt and would like to have a gun that the impact from a cold barrel and hot barrel shots are closer if not the same. The budget will restrict me from building a BR rifle out of it but I plan to get as close as I can to a BR rifle as my budget allows me. Would like to spend most of the money on the items that will affect the accuracy the most and be a little more restrained on any item that will not markedly improve accuracy (if there is such a thing....). We have plenty of "long shot" opportunities where I hunt and their range up to 400 yards but most of my favorites spots will keep the shooting under the 350 yards. At the beginning of the season shorter shots with ample opportunities and relaxed deer are more of a norm (under 150 yards, deer taking it's time when in open areas) but as the season progresses the deer gets very attentive to its surrounding, they don't hang around as long in an open area and the long shots (over 200 yds) become the norm. My longer shot to date is 258 yards quartering away at a "management" buck (horns were really messed up). The 150 grain Silver Ballistic Tip factory load did a great job stopping that buck. I will probably use the 30-06 barrel at the beginning of the season then switch to the 7mm barrel later. Eventually I want to get me a lighter rifle for the short shots and the deep hardwood hunting.

Is this all I need?
7mm Rem Mag barrel (duh!)
Muzzle brake
bolt face (with all parts, ejectors, etc)
magazine (I have not try it but I think I can use the magazine it has, I do have an extra magazine in case mods are needed.)
barrel nut (to make it a switch barrel the old barrel will keep the barrel nut attached to preserve headspace)
go/no go gauge (I have a couple of brass shells from one of the guys 7mm Rem Mag that was built by a reputable smith. I will probably use those)

Wish list:
As I mention earlier, I want to keep the poi from shifting much (or any) from a cold barrel shot to a warm barrel shot and to have the tightest groups I can. Keeping the shooter off the equation the barrel quality and the contour should be the biggest factors to achieve this. I will believe a varmint contour or heavier barrel will suit the bill. We don't do any still hunting and generally the average walk to the hunting spot is under 300 yards, I will say in my case no longer than 600 yards easy walk so weight is a factor but I would probably side with accuracy. I also want a muzzle brake to help with the recoil and keep my target on scope as much as possible. Getting the barrel from the same shop that can install the brake will be the ideal and I will probably side with that even if the price is somewhat higher.
Do you have to send the entire gun to have the brake installed or just the barrel?

Next is the scope base and rings. As of now I have a 20 MOA base and high QRW rings. This setup has the scope sitting over 2 inches high. If I revert to a 0 MOA base and medium rings I am sure that even with a heavy barrel contour and the 50mm objective of this scope I can get this scope considerably lower. I dislike aluminum bases, I just dont trust them so I want to stay away from that. I want to keep a set up similar if not the same of what I have as I would like to be able to remove the scope from the base and return it and retain the zero as practicable as it can be. It dont have to be a quick release, I dont see me changing a scope in the field and I like the idea of using a torque tool to make sure I have tight the screws correctly. I think is easier to change scopes between rifles if I use a Weaver/Picatinny set, specially if I end up switching scopes for different type of hunting (predator) which might be close in the future.
I should stay with a Weaver or Picatinny style bases/rings?
Has anyone encounter any issues as the scope shifting possible using this setup?

Now to the action. I have read a bit about truing and tuning your action and it sounds like it dont have much direct effect on accuracy. It will make the action smoother or even a "joy" to use but not add much if any to the accuracy. It does not seems to be much money but if I can help it I would like to avoid shipping my action anywhere as this complicates things much...
Without starting a debate, Will truing and tuning the action on this rifle have a DIRECT and significant effect on accuracy at 400 yards?

The other wish is to make this rifle a switch barrel. To do this (as I have read) you have to jam the barrel nut to the barrel to keep that headspace setting. I have also read that when done properly the poi from each barrel will not significantly shift. I understand that after many switches the head space could change due to the deformation of the threads but that is not a huge worry and I will have a way to check that. I will probably have to modify the stock to allow the barrel to be removed (make the barrel channel wider), modify a barrel nut tool and if I don't have enough clearance I will have to remove the scope.
Anyone has experience switching barrels this way or any other way?
Do they keep their POI?

Lastly but not least... 7mm Rem Magnum reloading dies (fl, bullet seating, neck size and bullet crimping(probably later). I am planing on shooting 140 to 160 grain bullets from Nosler on this rifle.
Any die set I need to avoid?


Budget:
$750 barrel+brake
$200 action work (if needed)
$150 Dies

What are your recommendations on:
barrels/brakes
action work
base/rings
reloading dies


Thanks!!!!

[TLong]

Nandy,
I was planning on doing this exact thing to my 06 last year. Everything you mentioned is all you will need as far as I know. I never got around to doing the change myself, for a few reasons. 1) I could not find the bolt parts in stock anywhere, 2) I wanted to replace my stock as well, and 3) time. Once I added all the cost in to exchanging the parts, I figured I would just buy a new one, and expand on my collection. But now I'm torn between the 7mmrm and a 300wm...I have .30 cal bullets to load and could keep everything simple, or I could get what I've been wanting with the 7mmrm. I keep weighing the pros and cons on both and can't 100% convince myself either way. BUT enough about me ;D

Keep your 20moa base, it cants the bell of the scope forward...I'd lose the high rings and go with medium or medium high.
You say you are shooting less than 500 yds most of the time, which the 06 is totally capable of shooting sub moa in that distance. The 7mm may be a little flatter shooting, but proper use of your scope will negate that.
As far as reloading dies, Id get redding.

[handirifle]

Nandy
Interesting project, BUT, since you say your shots will be 400 or under, and for deer, I would recommend sticking with the '06, BECAUSE

1. The cost of dies is gone, and maybe the barrel too. Question on changing POI issue, are you starting with a CLEAN cold barrel? If so, it is NOT uncommon for the first shot from a clean barrel to have a different POI. If that is the case I would stick with the one you have and keep it fouled for testing.

2. With bullet more accurate than the Noslers (they are not known as the most accurate bullets) and a better BC, like one of the Berger VLD bullets you'd be blown away at how close to the 7mm your trajectory will be, especially with a 26" tube like you have. You would also have that using about 30% less powder and getting about 30% less recoil, thus no need (unless you want one) for a brake.

3. You could spend your money on a better stock and/or scope.

I have been going over this type of project myself, in converting a rifle I now have in 338WM to something less punishing, but long range and affordable to shoot (retired, fixed income) and have decided to go with 30-06 and will hopefully use the Barnes 130gr TSX.

I remember reading an article from Sam Fadala, some time back where he took his '06 to Africa, and after getting permission from the game authorities (due to a shoulder problem and inability to handle heavier recoil) to use his '06 on Cape Buffalo. He killed one (head shot, and 200gr bullets, IIRC) but he was also using a 26" barrel, and his loads virtually matched velocities of the 300WM with a 22" tube.

I am sure you have thought this out a lot, and if you go with the 7mm, hope it works perfectly for ya. Just wanted to give you something else to think about. Sometimes the best answer is the simplest.

[barrel-nut]

I'd keep the 20 moa rail. I have Burris Tactical rings on two 50mm scopes and 20 moa rails. They ride low, and are easily removed and reinstalled.
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/116860/burris-1-xtreme-tactical-picatinny-style-rings-matte-low

I like Forster dies. Their micrometer seating dies are the best value in that type of die. Reddings' are very good as well, but more expensive. For the 7-mag, use a Lee factory crimp die too. I also like the Nosler 160 grain Accubond in 7mm.

For a barrel, I would plan to invest in as high quality as you can afford. My opinion is that this is where the biggest gains in accuracy per dollar spent are found. For myself, I would skip the brake.

I would replace the factory stock with a Bell and Carlson Duramaxx. This is for stagger feed, blind magazine, long actions. It has a varmint barrel channel and is very comfortable to shoot. Also affordable and available in a variety of camo or other finishes. Love mine. Good compromise between hunting and range-friendly.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/1103130298/bell-and-carlson-duramaxx-rifle-stock-savage-110-series-long-action-blind-magazine-heavy-barrel-varmint-and-tactical-synthetic?cm_vc=1103BrandPopProd

Whatever caliber you go with, buy a real go-gauge, to ensure correct headspace. Most 7-mag brass is way short at the datum line on the shoulder when new, and even once- fired brass may not be fully expanded.

Allow me to play devil's advocate for a moment. If your outside longest shot may be 400 yards, the 7-mag is not necessary. You could stick with the '06 and still have plenty of horsepower for that distance, plus keep the same bolt head, magazine, and follower. The '06 is easier to load for and shoot accurately IMHO. To take that further, I really like the .308 for those same reasons- same bolt head, VERY easy to load accurately, and even more easy to shoot accurately at that range, again with enough energy to do the job on whitetails, with the right bullet (an easy- expanding bullet like a Sierra Gameking). MUCH more pleasant to shoot than either the 7-mag, or the '06, which means you will practice more, and become more confident at longer ranges.

I went down this same path- started with the 30-06, yearned for a longer-range hunting rifle that would be super-accurate. So I got a 7- mag, and after several years of experimenting with loads and a whole lot of shoulder pounding, it occurred to me one day that maybe less really is more. Made the switch to the .308, and love it. I can and do shoot up to 100 rounds in a day at the range, at distances up to 600 yds, and actually hit what I'm aiming at at those distances, without getting beaten up in the shoulder. I never could do that with either of the other two. I know, it is not as flat-shooting as either of the others, but the difference is not that dramatic at these relatively short distances. Take some of the money you saved and buy a good laser range finder. Get a ballistic calculator app for your phone and learn to dial in your elevation corrections. Just a suggestion, food for thought...

I have never had a Savage action trued, so I can't speak for that. Mainly because like you, I don't want to part with mine for the necessary amount of time. But I'm sure that if I did, I'd probably be happy with the results. Just not in the cards for me now.

*Correction- in rereading your original post, I see that you have already replaced the factory stock with a Choate. Still, take a peek at the Duramaxx, you might like it.

[geargrinder]

I really hope you are not using a large shank recoil lug on your small shank action.

Another thing, you won't preserve the headspace by keeping the nut with the barrel unless it is somehow permanently locked to the barrel. It's a waste of time to worry about such things. That's what the guages are for. Put the guage in, spin the barrel down, tighten the nut, check with the no-go, and you're done.

You won't need expensive dies unless you are using a tight neck/neck turn chamber. Lee Deluxe Collet sets are my favorite. I also like Redding or Forster stuff.

If you want to carry the rifle and want a heavy barrel, you might want to ditch the Choate and choose something lighter and more functional for a carry rifle. B&C or Stockade would be a good choice.

You don't need action work. Polish the cocking ramp, make sure the cocking sleeve is round, and add a bolt lift kit. Then fire several hundred rounds through it. That's the best way to smooth up your action.

What you have listed is all that you need. Barrel, gauges, bolt head, magazine.

You'll need way less money than you have budgeted. Barrel will run about $300-$350. Send it to Ross Schuler to install a brake, about $100 installed. B&C stock is about $100. Dies will be less than $75. Gauges and Bolt head will be another $75.

btw it's brake, not break.

[GaCop]

I'd keep the 20 moa rail. I have Burris Tactical rings on two 50mm scopes and 20 moa rails. They ride low, and are easily removed and reinstalled.
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/116860/burris-1-xtreme-tactical-picatinny-style-rings-matte-low

I like Forster dies. Their micrometer seating dies are the best value in that type of die. Reddings' are very good as well, but more expensive. For the 7-mag, use a Lee factory crimp die too. I also like the Nosler 160 grain Accubond in 7mm.

For a barrel, I would plan to invest in as high quality as you can afford. My opinion is that this is where the biggest gains in accuracy per dollar spent are found. For myself, I would skip the brake.

I would replace the factory stock with a Bell and Carlson Duramaxx. This is for stagger feed, blind magazine, long actions. It has a varmint barrel channel and is very comfortable to shoot. Also affordable and available in a variety of camo or other finishes. Love mine. Good compromise between hunting and range-friendly.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/1103130298/bell-and-carlson-duramaxx-rifle-stock-savage-110-series-long-action-blind-magazine-heavy-barrel-varmint-and-tactical-synthetic?cm_vc=1103BrandPopProd

Whatever caliber you go with, buy a real go-gauge, to ensure correct headspace. Most 7-mag brass is way short at the datum line on the shoulder when new, and even once- fired brass may not be fully expanded.

Allow me to play devil's advocate for a moment. If your outside longest shot may be 400 yards, the 7-mag is not necessary. You could stick with the '06 and still have plenty of horsepower for that distance, plus keep the same bolt head, magazine, and follower. The '06 is easier to load for and shoot accurately IMHO. To take that further, I really like the .308 for those same reasons- same bolt head, VERY easy to load accurately, and even more easy to shoot accurately at that range, again with enough energy to do the job on whitetails, with the right bullet (an easy- expanding bullet like a Sierra Gameking). MUCH more pleasant to shoot than either the 7-mag, or the '06, which means you will practice more, and become more confident at longer ranges.

I went down this same path- started with the 30-06, yearned for a longer-range hunting rifle that would be super-accurate. So I got a 7- mag, and after several years of experimenting with loads and a whole lot of shoulder pounding, it occurred to me one day that maybe less really is more. Made the switch to the .308, and love it. I can and do shoot up to 100 rounds in a day at the range, at distances up to 600 yds, and actually hit what I'm aiming at at those distances, without getting beaten up in the shoulder. I never could do that with either of the other two. I know, it is not as flat-shooting as either of the others, but the difference is not that dramatic at these relatively short distances. Take some of the money you saved and buy a good laser range finder. Get a ballistic calculator app for your phone and learn to dial in your elevation corrections. Just a suggestion, food for thought...

I have never had a Savage action trued, so I can't speak for that. Mainly because like you, I don't want to part with mine for the necessary amount of time. But I'm sure that if I did, I'd probably be happy with the results. Just not in the cards for me now.

*Correction- in rereading your original post, I see that you have already replaced the factory stock with a Choate. Still, take a peek at the Duramaxx, you might like it.

++++1111.

[fyimo]

No to start a fire strom here but as one of the other posters said above the advanage of the 7mm Rem Mag over the 30-06 is not all that great in terms of velocity and energy and they use more powder and you would need to buy new dies and brass. There are some people that just like the 7mm bullets better then the 30 caliber bullets. I own both calibers and the difference isn't great enough to me to build a new rifle for it.

I never even count my first shot in my group when zeroing in or shooting because they can be a flyer because of any oil left in the barrel after cleaning the rifle. I also don't clean my rifle until after the season is over after zeroing it for the same reason.

It's basically your money so you have stated all the facts that will make your build successful and there's a lot to be said about the pride that comes from doing a custom build yourself so it's up to you. That's why I reload as I get a lot of satisfaction about putting together the bullets I hunt with verses the store bought kind. If you do your build I'm sure it will be successful and good luck. Seeing that you would be buying several new parts for your build a major step up in power would be a 300 Win Mag as it works with the long action.

[Nandy]

Thanks guys! I like and will look in to many of the suggestions given so far. I heard many of the suggestions about just keeping the 30-06 here and in another thread I made. I recognize the facts and agree I could do what I want with the 06... However, I want a 7mm Rem Mag... :) ;) :D ;D A man can never have many calibers and if this conversion goes smooth I can assure you there are some more to come. I just wanted to get the 30-06 vs 7mm out of the way, not that I dont appreciate the input but I am past that point. The 06 will still be used.

Keep them coming gents. I see the barrels from some of the contributors for the site. Was wondering about other barrels/brakes outside of those. I would like a good looking and effective brake (effective being more desirable). There might be some longer range shooting for me in my future but will be on paper...

Geargrinder - Why do those 2 words keep getting me all the time... Another one I see a lot is people writing "want" when they mean "won't". One day I will get y'alls English right... lol!

[wbm]

For a brake check out ringwerx.com Had one on a heavy barreled 7MM Magnum and it was the best brake I ever used. Check this article. http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2007/12/muzzle-brakes-bertalattos-test-results/ Apparently the Holland is one to consider.

[Nandy]

Anyone knows if I must send the entire gun to get the brake job done or can I just send the barrel? I would think I can just send the barrel but common sense is not always right...

[GaCop]

I dont see why you couldn't send just the barrel but, it's best to ask them what they need to get the job done.

[dsculley]

One more suggestion to think about. I own a 30-06 and a 7 mm Rem Mag. I love the 7 mm with the Berger 168 vld. Recoil is similar. I do not have a muzzle brake. I do, however, have a Limbsaver recoil pad on the 7 mm. Do yourself a favor and try one of these before adding the muzzle brake. Felt recoil with the Limbsaver on my 7 mm is less than my son's .308. I highly recommend them.

[barrel-nut]

Thanks guys! I like and will look in to many of the suggestions given so far. I heard many of the suggestions about just keeping the 30-06 here and in another thread I made. I recognize the facts and agree I could do what I want with the 06... However, I want a 7mm Rem Mag... :) ;) :D ;D A man can never have many calibers and if this conversion goes smooth I can assure you there are some more to come. I just wanted to get the 30-06 vs 7mm out of the way,




I understand completely!

Hopefully, with a good quality barrel, your results will be better than mine were. I agree with the previous poster about having better luck with lighter charges of faster burning powders- Reloder 22 was good for me. Tried Rel. 25, H-1000, Retumbo, Magpro- no joy.

When you get ready to load 7 mag, pm me and I'll give you some good info on case sizing/ forming, if you're interested.

[barrel-nut]

I agree with previous posters that recoil is very similar between the 7-mag and the '06, except that the 7-mag definitely has more muzzle blast, I think due to the heavier charges of slower burning powder.

I think that perceived recoil can vary greatly between rifles of the same caliber due to stock design and overall weight, and quality of the recoil pad. To me, a straighter comb ( minimal drop ) is more comfortable. Think "opposite of Weatherby".
Just more food for thought.

[Nandy]

Dsculley, I do have a limbsaver in this choate stock and I can shoot that 06 all day long. If I can just send the barrel then I might just skip the brake and try it without it as I can easily remove the barrel and send it. If I have to send the entire rifle and I am not getting the barrel and brake from a gunsmith then I will definitely shoot it without it first. My friend 7mm does have a brake but even with that it does sting however he has one of those recoil pad that are as hard as wood... My second reason for the brake is to keep the upward recoil down. I like to see when I hit the game and the reaction I get and where they head. It will be nice to be able to do that regardless of what magnification I am using. I have been shooting this year with the scope at minimum magnification to achieve this and thus being able to see the "entire picture" before,during and after the shot and it made a difference in finding the only deer I had to "track". In all 3 deers I have been able to see the given clues that I connected as hair and other stuff misting in the air (not trying to be graphic but it is what it is) The one I had to "track" was laying maybe 20 yards into the thicket past the treeline, she ran about 50 yards total with a bullet that connected with the heart... man, this things are tough!!! Once I am past 200 yds I have to use max magnification for the reticle to match my 250 300 and 350 shots and not having to resort to the table I have in my stock and start clicking away while the deer is walking out of the range/clear...

I wonder, if the poi will change much if one remove the brake? Anyone has made any comparison? The only thing I dont like about the brake is what anyone else will not like, the loud it will make the gun. I hunt solo but I will be shooting in a range every know and then as we dont tend to shot in our lease range when season is underway unless one must or you are the only one at the lease...

Barrel-nut, will do get with you once I got this complete...

I have not heard much about it but is it the consensus that eve if I have a varmint contour or thicker I will not see significant poi shifting from a cold barrel to a hot barrel?

[barrel-nut]

If its a quality barrel, it should not shift much.

[Nandy]

If its a quality barrel, it should not shift much.


That is the answer to removing the brake or cold to warm barrel shots?
Thanks for your help and time.

[handirifle]

Nandy
I fully understand the "want" side of the 7mm, I change calibers a lot myself, but just wanted to make sure you fully understood the capabilities of the 30-06, and it sounds like you do. I am retired and ion a fixed income so the cost issue is a BIG factor for me. Unfortunately for me, I live in an area of California where the lead bullets are banned, so I am limited to a few designs and makers of bullets. That makes MY choices much more difficult. the first thing i have to look at when deciding a caliber swap (for a HUNTING rifle), is how many different non lead bullets are available for that caliber. What a PITA!!!!!

Good luck on your build, and I agree with previous posts, try a good limbsaver recoil pad before adding a brake, or get a brake installed that can be turned on or off. On at the range and off in the field.

Since you have an aftermarket stock already, my suggestion is to try it first, and then maybe swap to another/better one later, if need be. Also earlier when I mentioned the non accurate Nosler bullets, I should have specified the Partitions. The Accubond has been getting a good reputation for accuracy. I had forgotten about those.

[handirifle]

Oh yes, almost forgot. My 338WM started as a 30-06 with detachable magazine, stagger feed. I have not changed anything on it (magazine wise) and it feeds, loads and ejects cases perfectly. So you may not have to change any of those parts either.

[barrel-nut]

If its a quality barrel, it should not shift much.


That is the answer to removing the brake or cold to warm barrel shots?
Thanks for your help and time.


I was referring to cold to warm barrel shots. Good quality barrels are stress relieved and stay relatively stable as they heat up. That being said, most rifles' cold clean bore shot will be slightly off from successive shots.

I have absolutely no experience with brakes, on my own rifles anyway.

Been around other people's braked rifles at the range, and while they are loud, aren't all rifles loud? I haven't noticed that aspect of it to be as big of a deal as some people make it out to be.