Savage Guru gunsmith

**Nor Cal Mikie** · 05-12-2022, 09:21 AM

Well said Mr. Baker Sir!!

And even if you don't know it, I'am thinking you may have solved "my" feeding problem/issue with my 20 MGM Wildcat. (20 TCM)
Keep thinking it was the feed ramp/adapter issue but now I see it's a feed "cone" issue. THANK YOU!!

**Nor Cal Mikie** · 05-12-2022, 09:43 AM

SHARPSHOOTER (Fred)
You've got Too many PMs and you can't receive any more.
I need you to cut a "feed cone" on my 20 caliber barrel?
How much, how long and can I ship it? Mike.

**gbflyer** · 05-12-2022, 10:20 AM

I cut a “feed cone” on every barrel I chamber. Basically you’re just breaking a sharp edge. I was advised by Jim Borden not to exceed .140 total of unsupported case. It takes very little effort to do it and it makes all the difference in reliable feeding. Sharpshooter is 100% correct.

**Dave Hoback** · 05-12-2022, 11:03 AM

Every AR I’ve done has a cone. If it didn’t, rounds would jam left & right! As for 223/5.56 being unsupported with this; I’ve reloaded some seriously hot 223 in the past, and don’t get the raised ring (like a belted magnum case). It’s a non issue.

What Jim said is the truth. Several here know what they are doing, but Fred (sharpshooter)has the most extensive knowledge base. While I understand & can relay the concept, I’ve never dealt with & fixed a jamming 17 Rem. Fred very likely has seen more than a couple. Email him on his website & he will get you squared away.

**tomme boy** · 05-12-2022, 11:45 PM

I cant post pics but here is a couple of links that explains what I was talking about. It is an issue when you get tolerance stacking. To say it is a non issue is not a wise decision on your part. You have to be careful that the "smith" also knows about this and might ask a ? about which brass the customer is using. This is a common problem in AR rifles if you are around them enough.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/7UwQrqYFHoG81w8f7

https://photos.app.goo.gl/59hcXKmkWmX6KYUg7

**wbm** · 05-13-2022, 10:03 AM

Thanks for the post Tommy Boy. Wow! That is as rare a term for shooting as "powder position sensitivity."

Anyway I had to look it up....Tolerance Staking: An engineering term that refers to the overall reliability of a system based on the combined deviations of its individual components.

Lot's of talk about "tolerance stacking" problems occurring from using "mix-and-match" parts for AR platforms...especially in bolt carrier groups.

https://www.sigtalk.com/threads/stac...erances.91713/

**Dave Hoback** · 05-13-2022, 11:54 AM

Rare? Hmm… I’ve never thought it to be. It’s a term used used often & quite a normal concept for hobby machinists, builders & gunsmith like myself & others I’ve known. I would think the same for gunsmiths doing it full time.

Were you being sincere WBM? Or just being a it facetious?

Because I’m fairly certain it’s been used here before.

**Flat Land Coaxer** · 05-13-2022, 08:27 PM

Just so we are clear, Im trying to figure this out. Its frustrating. My attitude is not poor. If you think that, get over it. I dont understand how this is gonna work in relation to where the current feed ramp is and how another "cone" behind that is gonna do anything at all. I have still not found any pics of a cone on a bolt action. I hafta see to know, thats how my mind works. Im not argueing with anyone, especially not sharp shooter. I cant think of how to ask the proper questions and those of you who insist on saying Im not listening, sure arent making any contributions to this thread.

**Flat Land Coaxer** · 05-13-2022, 08:39 PM

I tried to message you sharpshooter. I dont have access to private messaging apparently.

**Dave Hoback** · 05-13-2022, 08:55 PM

I think you are overthinking. Look at the picture I posted. That’s an AR barrel without the barrel extension. An AR barrel looks exactly like a bolt action barrel without the barrel extension.

You can’t message because of your post count. That’s why recommended you contact him through his Website. Here you go.
http://www.sharpshootersupply.com/

**Robinhood** · 05-13-2022, 09:09 PM

Your case head protrudes about .125" from the breach. That number is not arbitrary. It is slightly longer than the bolt head is deep on a 110/Axis action bolt,.115". Just enough clearance to not rub. I am sure there is some deviation from the drawing below, but if you look at it the outer face of the bolt head covers but does not control the base dimension of .3772". I should mention the bore on the bolt head is probably close to .385".

Using GBflyers dimension of .140" as a max the question for me, which relates to the question you should have is, What is the angle to cut that would be of the most assistance to your specific issue. I am not so sure, depending on the mentioned web thickness(Blue Avenger)but a total of .145" of exposed case may not be an issue. Cutting the case in half lengthwise may give you some comfort but that is the weeds for me.

So we are now set at somewhere between .015" and a possible .020" of material removed from the smallest dimension at the breach(.37X) in a cone shape with the edge of the cone being somewhere outside of where the nose of the bullet currently slams into the flat breach of the barrel.

Losing .015" of chamber length is something but it is probably not enough to substantiate your fears. If someone knows enough to disagree with that please chime in. Thanks to all of the knowledgeable contributions. Good luck Flat Land Coaxer.

**Flat Land Coaxer** · 05-13-2022, 09:13 PM

Light bulb finally came on! Whew. Would you have to re-reem the chamber? It seems like there would be a lot of case sticking out?

**Dave Hoback** · 05-13-2022, 10:51 PM

No. Not changing the chamber depth at all, as it relates to Action & bolt face. Even the headspace would be the same as before without the cone. Like I said… your overthinking it.

**sharpshooter** · 05-14-2022, 04:52 PM

I actually built a cutter to do it without removing the barrel.

**wbm** · 05-14-2022, 05:04 PM

Good luck Flat Land Coaxer.

+1

**Nor Cal Mikie** · 05-15-2022, 10:19 AM

Getting conflicting information. The question comes up about "unsupported" case head ? Think I'll refer to Fred on this.
Email headed your way.

**sharpshooter** · 05-15-2022, 06:25 PM

There is no unsupported case head. It's the same exact feed cone as an AR-15, and nobody has any problems with it. Before I starting doing this, I sectioned case heads on every case I could get my hands on that was based on .378" boltface.

**Flat Land Coaxer** · 05-15-2022, 06:50 PM

What kind of turnaround do you have for something like that nowadays sharpshooter?

**tomme boy** · 05-15-2022, 07:30 PM

Originally Posted by sharpshooter

There is no unsupported case head. It's the same exact feed cone as an AR-15, and nobody has any problems with it. Before I starting doing this, I sectioned case heads on every case I could get my hands on that was based on .378" boltface.

Then why does this happen in AR15's? You can not say it does not happen because it does. 6.5 grendal is another one that it happens to. I showed you pics of brass that have the low web and this happened to and you still do not see it as a problem? Granted, you are very knowledgeable but you don't know everything. Sometimes the fix ends up being a bigger problem.

**Robinhood** · 05-16-2022, 01:09 AM

Originally Posted by tomme boy

Then why does this happen in AR15's? You can not say it does not happen because it does. 6.5 grendal is another one that it happens to. I showed you pics of brass that have the low web and this happened to and you still do not see it as a problem? Granted, you are very knowledgeable but you don't know everything. Sometimes the fix ends up being a bigger problem.

An AR-15 can begin to extract the case before the pressure subsides. Over gassed? Sometimes you rip the rim off, sometimes the case expands but still comes out..

**Dave Hoback** · 05-16-2022, 03:42 AM

Originally Posted by tomme boy

Then why does this happen in AR15's? You can not say it does not happen because it does. 6.5 grendal is another one that it happens to. I showed you pics of brass that have the low web and this happened to and you still do not see it as a problem? Granted, you are very knowledgeable but you don't know everything. Sometimes the fix ends up being a bigger problem.

Like I had said, I can’t really speak for this in a bolt gun, other than knowing about it. But Fred JUST spoke on it, having first hand working knowledge himself. Now I certainly CAN speak on it relating to the AR15 platform. What you’ve outlined has not happened in any AR I’ve ever built, beyond a couple thous/inch. And I’ve built quite a few more than most in almost 20years. In fact, I’ve never seen it without some other pressure identifying problems. Stuck, cracked cases, blown primers, etc. So, no.. it’s not the norm. There is no identifiable “band” around the cases of my reloads in my current AR for sure.

**tomme boy** · 05-16-2022, 03:43 AM

Has nothing to do with the gas system. It happens when the "cone" is too deep and you have brass that is not made correctly. Starline being the main culprit. But Hornady is known for this to happen too. I think as long as the cone is done correctly it "should" not happen. But how many people are capable of sectioning their brass and the depth gauges to determine if the cone is too close to the unsupported web.

**Dave Hoback** · 05-16-2022, 03:59 AM

Who said anything about the gas system?? I’m simply talking about hands on with a specific platform.

**Fuj'** · 05-16-2022, 07:10 AM

Originally Posted by Fuj'

What exactly does the cartridge do when you push it into the chamber ?? Looking
at the 17 Remington, It's basically a needle, and should not have much interference
being chambered. And what model Savage is this ?? Is it a blind magazine ??

I was going to keep my trap shut but here goes. The above quote of mine has not been
answered.....Coning a barrel is a band aid fix for chambering, as was used early on for the
M-16's to solve jamming problems in the field. There is a parent problem why there is a
feeding issue, and most always starts with the magazine angle and depth it's locked in
place and or feed lips. My two Rock Rivers 5.56 AR's have a minimal feed cone. The AR-
EOP varmint with full bull Wilson barrel has less then a 1/32" shallow angle cut. So my
advice is to find the parent problem first and that starts with what's going on in the loading
process. Is that cartridge taking a nose dive ?? Running up hill ?? Bolt skipping over the top ??
Binding at half chamber ??

**Nor Cal Mikie** · 05-16-2022, 09:17 AM

In my case, I'am talking bolt guns. Single feeding at that! SHORT ROUND (1 1/4" long) lays on the loading ramp. Bolt starts to close. Round gets pushed forward to the flat end of the barrel trying to hit the chamber hole. Bullet hits the flat area "around" the chamber opening before it can start into the chamber. Bullet gets pushed back into the case neck.

Longer OAL Round like the .221 Fireball feeds better but still a PITA at times. Even longer rounds like a .223 will feed better because they get tipped UP by the loading ramp.
"Feed Ramp" cut at chamber opening lets the bullet start into the chamber. Loading issue solved.

I only know of one way to find out for sure.
Issue with loading an AR? I could see that AND the "feed ramp" help/cure.