Reply With QuoteNice shooting. What sort of groups was the old barrel giving you when you were last using it?
Finally replaced the factory barrel on my 12 FV .223 with a Shilen Select Match 416R SS 1:7 twist 26-inch barrel from Northland Shooters Supply.
They were really helpful in making the selection and delivered it in 3 days after my order.
A great experience and I recommend them as a trusted and reliable source.
I reviewed all my sessions with the 12 FV Factory barrel, including recorded 5-round groups, sighters and 3-round groups used to tune ammo selections and realized that I had over 9,015 rounds down the barrel and figured it was time to replace it.
It took less than 30 minutes to replace the factory barrel with the Shilen.
During my scope sight-in and break-in session, I shot 50 rounds of 77 SMKs with Varget powder with the Shilen barrel with lots of barrel cleanings and was pretty happy with the initial session.
The barrel averaged .241 for the 5 groups I finally measured after getting things sorted out (smallest group was 0.204 and the largest was 0.276).
The multiple cleaning patches during the session sort of kept me busy, but I was very pleased with the results.
A few days later, the second session with the same bullets and powder was a revelation.
First, I found that, if I kept the reticle exactly on my aim point (less than 1/10 of an inch at 100 yards with my 45X Leupold Competition scope), the bullets would hit the same hole.
If I wavered even a bit off the aim point by half of the width of the reticle, the bullets would expand the group.
I was going to have to become much more conscious of maintaining aiming discipline.
Second, I found that I had to really concentrate to get the results that the barrel could produce.
I found that, at times, I was pressuring the trigger to the side a bit when I was pulling the trigger and moved the POI to the side opening up the groups.
After shooting 7 groups, I had three 5-round groups that were under .2 inches (0.157, 0.171, & 0.176) and three 5-round groups that were 0.218, 0.219 and 0.222. The 7th group was shot as the mowers were coming to mow the range and I let the last round release in a hurry to finish before the 45-minute mowing delay and shot a group of 0.248.
The 6 good groups averaged 0.194.
This new barrel is a keeper, but it has already taught me that I have to ‘up my game’ to take advantage of this spectacular barrel. It requires an increased amount of concentration to make sure I don’t mess up what the barrel can do.
Nice shooting. What sort of groups was the old barrel giving you when you were last using it?
Very nice. I am going over 6000rnds with my .223 barrel and am also considering a new one. Glad to hear the Shilen is doing well for you.
Your trials with the hold and trigger are still my problem as well. I've struggled with a 12x and then 16x to keep groups small. Most of my groups end up just under 1/2 with a few getting into the 1's and 2's, but, not that many. I was not holding as well as I should, and my follow through still suffers at times. I have a 25x on it now so will be interesting to see if I can do better. I know it is a lot easier to hold 'close' with the 40X on the 6BR.
Smokey262,
The old factory barrel was a very good barrel and it served me well.
The last session before I changed it, it averaged 0.258 for 7 5-round groups.
For 1,565 groups with every type of bullet and powder I tried, it averaged 0.276, even including a bullet type that averaged over 0.6 inches.
I can't say that I wasn't pleased with it, and with all my Savage barrels, but this new barrel is an entirely new experience.
charlie b,
Years ago, I experimented with scope power to see if it really made a difference.
I tried 9x, 15X, 24X and 36X.
There was steady accuracy improvement up to 24X, But there was very slight, if any, basic improvement in accuracy above 24X.
But I realized that the fine target reticles on the 36X were a great help in maintaining aim point consistency.
It was tough for me to aim consistently when the reticle was larger than the bullet holes I was making in a target.
Over the years I have gravitated to higher power 32X NightForce scope and more recently to 42X NightForce and a 45X Leupold competition.
I need the clarity and contrast, as much as the magnification. The target reticles coupled with high magnification are really what makes those scopes effective.
My comments on aimpoint hold are based upon the precision aiming that those high power scopes provide.
At my age, turning 82 in a few months, I find that the higher magnification really helps, but such high powers are only reasonable for target shooting.
All my hunting rifles have never had magnification higher than 15X, and that high limit was for a beanfield .270 Winchester that I shot at longer distances.
Most excellent. I have a Shilen barrel from them. Now looking for another. They really do shoot!
CFJ, I find the same. Fine reticles are a must for targets.
Haven't hunted in decades. Most of my hunting was done with muzzleloaders and pistols :) The few times I used a scope it was an old Tasco 3-9x (1980's vintage). That thing worked really well, even in fairly low light.
Most of you know I shoot cast competition. Initially I used my 12FV in 6.5CM with a Vortex 4 - 16x HSLR and worked well for the 100yd distance we shoot.
Then I bought a vintage B&L 24x 1/8" target dot scope for my 7BR build - wow. The reticle dot exactly matches the 'x' dot on the official Cast Bullet Association targets at 100yds - I know if I'm on the dot or not, no guessing. Much prefer it to trying for 4 equal 10-ring segments to center a fine crosshair.
CF - Pleased to read of your update, look to more of the same as you move forward with that new Shilen!
CFJ, would you mind sharing your cleaning regimen as to round count between barrel cleaning? That is an impressive round count on your factory barrel. Like you, I have a very accurate Model 12 FV in .223 that is approaching 2500 rounds fired, with no noticeable loss of accuracy. I hope to stretch this barrel's life out for as long as possible....trying to balance not over cleaning to induce added wear to the throat/bore with maintaining consistent accuracy. I never overheat the barrel, don't use peak powder charges, and currently clean every 60-80 rounds. Also like you, I prefer a 1/8 minute target dot reticle with extra fine crosshairs to help my aging eyesight for target shooting with high magnification. Thanks.
I would listen to how he does things.
Mine was abused. I cleaned (including removing all copper) every 100-150 rounds as I noticed that accuracy dropped off between 150 and 200. But, I fired mine from cold to hot. Usually 50 rounds or more per session, 5 or 10 round strings with only 5 to 10 min in between strings. Summer days the barrel was sizzling hot, even in the shade). The interesting thing is it continued to group well either hot or cold. It did change POI about 1MOA from cold to sizzling. I am not that abusive to it these days. I take longer breaks in between those 5 or 10 round strings and monitor barrel temps better.
When it stops shooting less than 1/2MOA groups I'll replace it.
reddeluxe,
For the 9,000 round life of the old factory barrel, I have been using Patch-Out as my copper/barrel cleaner after using the Patch-Out Accelerator prior to the wet Patch-Out patch.
With my old Savage barrel, I cleaned the new barrel and shot 100 rounds to zero the scope and get comfortable with the rifle.
After that, I cleaned the barrel after every 100 rounds or so, thereafter, until I replaced the barrel.
I never used a brass or nylon brush on my barrel. I ran about 6 to 8 dry patches down the barrel until they came out clean.
I doubt that I ever shot more than 150 rounds between cleanings.
For the new barrel, I followed the Shilen barrel break in - for the first five shots I ran a wet Patch Out patch followed by a dry patch down the barrel.
Then shot five and ran a wet and dry patch after 5 shots. After 20 shots, I ran a wet dry patch after 10 shots.
After the first 50 shots, I finished the session and cleaned the barrel.
The second session, I shot 50 rounds and then cleaned the barrel.
Regardless of cleaning, and probably more importantly, I have never loaded any ammo near PMax in either barrel.
I was always loading in the middle or low middle of the load tables.
I never had any signs of high pressure and, with Lapua brass, I got 20 to 23 reloads before I started to see primer pockets getting loose. I rarely, had a neck split with Lapua brass.
Recently, I have been shooting Starline brass because Lapua .223 brass has become unobtanium.
I have reloaded Starline 10 times and the primer pockets are still tight and feel like I might get at least 15 reloads from them.
You're doing the right things. I don't think anything I was doing was anything special.
My chamber eroded with use, but I adjusted my seating depth to accommodate that.
All my measurements of group sizes included monitoring for the effect of Jump. The results showed a slight preference for a jump range of about 20 to 30 thousandths, but it depended somewhat on the bullet.
I also found that there were jumps that were almost as accurate about 80 thousandths apart.
My shooter induced variation probably masked any real ability to determine whether jump really made a difference.
I am more fortunate than Charlie b in that Northern Virginia never gets quite as hot as New Mexico in the summer.
Also, we have a shade cover over our firing line, so the rifles are never in direct sunlight.
The barrels still get hot and I monitor the temperature with temperature strips.
I try to keep the barrel temps under 120 degrees because that is when I find that the bullet POI begins to drop and messes up my group sizes.
I cool a hot barrel with a tube inflator with a flexible tube that fits into the chamber of my rifle. 10 minutes of high velocity air flow down the barrel drops the temp from 130 to about 85 so i can start shooting again.
Always great to read your threads CFJunkie. Glad the new barrels is working out for you.
Thanks, DesertDug
Good to hear from you. Hope you are well and still shooting great.
CFJ, thanks for the excellent information, regarding your cleaning regimen. I have always used Hoppe's to initially clean out the carbon residue, the followed by Sweets for the actual copper removal. I do use a nylon brush a few strokes to begin with on the carbon, then only wet/dry patches, all with a well fitting bore guide and coated Dewey rod. I like to completely clean. This method has proved to keep the variance between clean/fouled POI shift to a minimum. Good luck with your new barrel.
AmenOriginally Posted by DesertDug
I am sorry, I may have mispoke.
If you want something that removes copper faster try KG12. The only downside is it doesn't change color. I never got along with Sweet's.
And, yes, I use Patchout or Wipeout a lot. When I am lazy I'll just squirt some Wipeout in the barrel and let it sit overnight. If I am in a hurry I'll use KG12 to get rid of the copper and then Patchout or Carbonout to clean up the rest.
Results from multiple sessions with the new barrel and different bullet weights at 100 yards. That is the maximum distance available at our range.
These results were recorded after an unmeasured barrel break-in session.
Average Bullet Weight # Groups Powder Jump 0.217 Sierra 80 SMK #9390 80 8 Varget 0.031 0.220 Hornady 80 ELD-M #22831 80 8 Varget 0.022 0.222 Sierra 77 SMK #9377 77 23 Varget 0.019 0.252 Nosler 80 CC #25116 80 4 Varget 0.010 0.260 Sierra 90 SMK 9290 90 4 Varget 0.012
I have never shot 80 and 90 gr bullets before in a bolt action. This is the first time I have had a twist that would stabilize bullets heavier than 77 grains.
The performance of the first three loads was almost identical and it could easily change if my shooter induced variations change a bit with more samples.
The Standard Deviations between group sizes for the first three bullets were 0.042, 0.039 and 0.037, respectively.
Note that SD reduces when the number of measured items increases so the 77 gr SD numbers can't really be compared to the other two loads with about 1/3 of the samples.
The first three bullets are significantly better performers than the last two.
The Nosler 80 gr CCs are an older bullet shape and perhaps need a different jump to perform better. It is also possible that the simply don't have the shape to get the best out of this barrel.
I'm not sure that I had a good load for the 90 gr SMKs. But it is possible that the bullets are not stabilizing at 100 yards or I have not found the jump at which they will perform optimally.
The jump numbers are an average for multiple loads.
For the 77 gr SMK loads, there were two jump ranges:
0.009 with a group average of 0.229
0.028 with a group average of 0.214
As a result, I will be focusing on reloads with jumps that are in the 0.020 to 0.029 range.
My next sessions I will be trying 69 SMKs and 73 ELD-Ms to see how the barrel performs with somewhat lighter bullets. The jumps will be in the 0.018 to 0.024 range.
Last edited by CFJunkie; 05-23-2025 at 06:18 PM. Reason: Typo
No like button so here's my
Very nice and good for you!
I am really sorry to see the notice that this site will be ending.
I have been an avid follower for 7 years and really respect the level of interaction that occurs on this site.
I will miss seeing inputs from so many of the contributors.
Here are more results from the last two sessions.
Tried 69 SMKs and reshot another load of 77 SMKs with a short Jump, just to see if it performed as poorly as the last load.
5/27/2025 & 6/2/2025 Average Bullet Weight # Grps Powder Velocity Jump Exit time Bullet Avg # Grps Bullet ST Dev 0.202 Sierra 69 SMK #1380 69 4 Varget 2733 0.018 1.305 0.224 8 0.032 0.246 Sierra 69 SMK #1380 69 4 Varget 2733 0.021 1.305 0.208 Hornady 73 ELD-M #22774 73 4 Varget 2702 0.020 1.305 0.208 4 0.069 0.226 Sierra 77 SMK #9377 77 3 Varget 2685 0.006 1.305 0.226 3 0.036
The 77 SMKs with a jump of 0.006 averaged 0.226 and the previous load at a jump of 0.009 averaged 0.229. Just about the same.
The combined list of all the loads, ordered by average, and with the one load of 77 SMKs with a exit time about 1/3 off the chamber, shows the trends of bullet performance.
Data from Inception to 6/2/2025 Average Bullet Weight # Grps Powder Velocity Jump Exit time Bullet Avg # Grps Bullet Rank ST Dev ET Refl 0.208 Hornady 73 ELD-M #22774 73 4 Varget 2702 0.020 1.305 0.208 4 1 0.069 12th 0.217 Sierra 80 SMK #9390 80 8 Varget 2680 0.029 1.305 0.217 8 2 0.042 12th 0.201 Sierra 77 SMK #9377 77 7 Varget 2679 0.027 1.305 0.220 22 3 0.038 12th 0.226 Sierra 77 SMK #9377 77 3 Varget 2685 0.006 1.305 0.229 Sierra 77 SMK #9377 77 12 Varget 2683 0.009 1.305 0.220 Hornady 80 ELD-M #22831 80 8 Varget 2667 0.021 1.305 0.220 8 4 0.039 12th 0.237 Sierra 77 SMK #9377 77 4 Varget 2624 0.030 1.342 0.237 4 5 0.031 12.3th 0.224 Sierra 69 SMK #1380 69 8 Varget 2733 0.019 1.305 0.224 8 6 0.032 12th 0.252 Nosler 80 CC #25116 80 4 Varget 2677 0.035 1.305 0.252 4 7 0.038 12th 0.260 Sierra 90 SMK #9290 90 4 Varget 2623 0.027 1.305 0.260 4 8 0.028 12th
The short jump average turns out to be about 0.025 to 0.028 on the average. The samples are small, but the 0.006 to 0.009 jump sample is 15 groups while the 0.027 jump is 7 groups.
The sample sizes are large enough that the trend is believable.
The impact of loading a reflection about 1/3 off the chamber is about 0.017 higher than the 77 gr bullet average. Since the standard deviation for all the 77 SMK loads are about the same, the impact of my shooter induced variations are not the reason for the higher average. I would conclude that, even though the statistical sample is small, there is a trend that exit time variation away from the reflection at the chamber is evident.
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