Results 1 to 21 of 21

Thread: I need an adult - twisted receiver and insufficient primary extraction

  1. #1
    Basic Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    23

    I need an adult - twisted receiver and insufficient primary extraction


    Hey guys,

    A few years ago I bought an old blind mag staggerfeed long action Savage for super cheap. My intention was to throw it in a Choate tactical stock, put a heavy .308 barrel on it, and use it as a beater to hone my wind reads and introduce friends to longer range without putting as many miles on my nicer rifles.

    The thing has sat gathering dust in a corner for years at this point both because the action itself was a basket case and because I was in over my head trying to fix it.

    I’ve had all kinds of issues with it, but I think I’m down to the last two.

    First, the action appears to be twisted. From the rear of a one-piece scope base to the front, which is over the barrel ring, my digital level is measuring a 2.2 degree delta. Is that enough that I should have someone straighten it for me, or should I throw a cheap scope on it, shoot it, and see what happens? I shot it with the two-piece bases it came with, and found that I had to dial my windage knob pretty close to the end of its range, but I was able to zero it.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMG_9086 Large.jpeg 
Views:	27 
Size:	219.7 KB 
ID:	11237

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMG_9085 Large.jpeg 
Views:	22 
Size:	148.3 KB 
ID:	11238

    Second, my primary extraction is very weak. Bolt lift felt fine, but I had to tap the bolt open with a small hammer (mild load, no pressure signs). I found that the BAS was loose, and that the rear baffle looks quite worn. The action twist may not be helping either.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMG_9087 Large.jpeg 
Views:	23 
Size:	177.6 KB 
ID:	11239

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMG_9088 Large.jpeg 
Views:	20 
Size:	162.5 KB 
ID:	11240

    I bought a new tactical bolt handle and found that it does not mate up well with the old rear baffle, partly because of the wear, and partly because the part drawings have clearly changed substantially over the years, with the new handle's body being quite a bit wider than the old baffle.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMG_9089 Large.jpeg 
Views:	19 
Size:	175.6 KB 
ID:	11241

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMG_9093 Large.jpeg 
Views:	20 
Size:	219.6 KB 
ID:	11242

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMG_9092 Large.jpeg 
Views:	73 
Size:	228.0 KB 
ID:	11243

    Should I buy a new baffle and hope it works on the old bolt body, or should I just buy a new complete bolt assembly and sell the one I have for cheap with a note that the rifle exhibited weak primary extraction?

    Thanks guys, hopefully I’m getting to the end of this damn project…

    Steve

  2. #2
    Basic Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    23
    Quick update. I threw the action in a vise and used the barrel wrench to try applying a little torque to it. I think I got it pretty close on my first try. The digital level now shows a .5 degree delta. I think I'm gonna leave it where it is unless you guys recommend a more precise method to try and get it straighter.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMG_9094.jpg 
Views:	11 
Size:	129.3 KB 
ID:	11244

    Now I just need some input on whether to pick up a rear baffle or to get a complete bolt.

  3. #3
    Basic Member Robinhood's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    South Texas
    Age
    67
    Posts
    8,314
    Fixed 2 of these. My guess is one of the previous owners had used something put through the loading and ejection ports to secure the action and remove the barrel. After I had gotten to the place you are i used straight edges and creative lighting to help. the straight edges along the top bottom and sides on the od to see if there were ani gaps. The lighting (and a machined piece of flat stock I slid in and out of the bolt lug raceway feeling for rocking etc...) was used to creat shadows etc... to highlight, bends, twists or warps. I have(had) the pricision eye for that stuff. Try it, you might impress yourself. I also have v blocks and inspection granite to look for highs and lows with an indicator. The twist is usually close if the action screws line up in the center of the factory rifle stock holes and screw in with ease.
    I am sorry, I may have mispoke.

  4. #4
    Administrator J.Baker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    NW Ohio
    Age
    50
    Posts
    6,775
    Well I was going to have you check something before you tried straightening the action, but I guess it's a little late for that now...

    The old flat-back actions were hand polished, and sometimes they got a little heavy handed with them on the polishing wheel which resulted in the rear flat being angled slightly out of square from one side to the other, or front to back, or a combination of both.

    Best way to check if an action is warped, bent or twisted is to chuck it up in a lath by the breech end and index it in on the front ring, then move the tool holler back to the rear ring and see how much runout there is. This will tell you which way it's off and by how much.

    The long actions were often warped slightly from the heat treating process. Most weren't bad enough to worry about, but occasionally you'd come across one that was bad enough to need some love.
    "Life' is tough. It's even tougher if you're stupid." ~ John Wayne
    “Under certain circumstances, 
urgent circumstances, desperate circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer.” —Mark Twain

  5. #5
    Basic Member Robinhood's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    South Texas
    Age
    67
    Posts
    8,314
    I am thinking the best solution in case you have one of those with the over polished flat would be to put epoxy under the rear of the base and tighten the screw until it makes good contact on the high side? Of coarse using a release agent on one or both sides.
    I am sorry, I may have mispoke.

  6. #6
    Basic Member Robinhood's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    South Texas
    Age
    67
    Posts
    8,314
    BTW. If the BAS is loose, Primary extraction will not function.

    There ware rumors of a slight change in the interface between the bolt and the handle. The solution there would be a different bolt body I assume.
    I am sorry, I may have mispoke.

  7. #7
    Basic Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    23
    Thanks for the replies, guys.

    Quote Originally Posted by J.Baker View Post
    Well I was going to have you check something before you tried straightening the action, but I guess it's a little late for that now...

    The old flat-back actions were hand polished, and sometimes they got a little heavy handed with them on the polishing wheel which resulted in the rear flat being angled slightly out of square from one side to the other, or front to back, or a combination of both.

    Best way to check if an action is warped, bent or twisted is to chuck it up in a lath by the breech end and index it in on the front ring, then move the tool holler back to the rear ring and see how much runout there is. This will tell you which way it's off and by how much.

    The long actions were often warped slightly from the heat treating process. Most weren't bad enough to worry about, but occasionally you'd come across one that was bad enough to need some love.
    After I twisted the action this morning, the screw holes for the scope base lined up MUCH better, so I'm thinking it actually was warped. I don't have a way of checking it, but the flat looks square with the flat surfaces below, so I think the issue was with the front end. While I know things can warp in heat treatment, I could easily imagine this being caused by someone trying to remove the barrel without a receiver wrench, just cranking on a barrel nut wrench. I'm going to try mounting a scope up to it and shooting it. I have a record of making things orders of magnitude worse when I don't leave "good enough" alone, so I'm going to resist the urge to get it closer, unless you guys think the .5 degree delta is still too much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robinhood View Post
    BTW. If the BAS is loose, Primary extraction will not function.

    There ware rumors of a slight change in the interface between the bolt and the handle. The solution there would be a different bolt body I assume.
    I tightened up the BAS and was still getting marginal extraction with a strange jump in the cam motion.

    This afternoon, I switched on my brain after taking a step back from the project, and I'm pretty sure I've diagnosed the problem.

    When I push the rear baffle back against the bolt knob, there are 41 thousandths of gap between the front of the baffle and the rear of the receiver. I'm fairly certain now that the chamber was remed too short. The barrel was bought off some guy on the forum for cheap, so I'm not entirely surprised that it isn't right. I've finish-reamed Garand chambers before, so I'm thinking that maybe I should rent a pull-through reamer and go to town on it.

    How much of a gap should there be for clearance? Maybe 5 thou?

    Thanks again for the help guys, I think I'm really getting close now!

  8. #8
    Super Moderator Blue Avenger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Minnesota
    Age
    66
    Posts
    3,090
    Quote Originally Posted by Robinhood View Post
    BTW. If the BAS is loose, Primary extraction will not function.

    There ware rumors of a slight change in the interface between the bolt and the handle. The solution there would be a different bolt body I assume.
    Or shorten the rear length to move the handle closer to the baffle?
    .223 Rem AI, .22-250 AI, .220 Swift AI .243 Win AI, .6mm Rem AI, .257 Rob AI, .25-06 AI, 6.5x300wsm .30-06 AI, .270 STW, 7mm STW, 28 nosler, .416 Taylor

  9. #9
    Basic Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    23
    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Avenger View Post
    Or shorten the rear length to move the handle closer to the baffle?
    I think I'd need a mill to do that properly. My friend is a machinist, so I could ask him for a favor.

    Would the firing pin and firing pin spring need to be shortened as well?

  10. #10
    Basic Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    3,534
    Quote Originally Posted by S11033 View Post
    I think I'd need a mill to do that properly. My friend is a machinist, but I'd rather save my favors for something I can't do at home with a pull-through reamer.

    I also don't know if shortening the body that much would make me have to shorten the firing pin and/or its spring.
    Chamber reamed too short????....that has nothing to do with primary extraction. The gap is not an indicator of lack of primary extraction. Two angled surfaces act as a cam to pop the case loose. The baffle is the most consistent in size and tolerance, so my bet is the bolt handle is out of spec. I have seen many that were from the get go.
    "As long as there's lead in the air....there's still hope.."

  11. #11
    Basic Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    23
    Quote Originally Posted by sharpshooter View Post
    Chamber reamed too short????....that has nothing to do with primary extraction. The gap is not an indicator of lack of primary extraction. Two angled surfaces act as a cam to pop the case loose. The baffle is the most consistent in size and tolerance, so my bet is the bolt handle is out of spec. I have seen many that were from the get go.
    Lol, you right. Thanks for saving me a lot of trouble.

    I need to figure out a way of taking up this massive 41 thou gap between the front of the baffle and the rear of the receiver. Instead of the cam surface on the handle contacting the corresponding surface on the baffle and pulling the bolt to the rear, it's just pushing the baffle forward into the gap. The original bolt handle and the new tactical one I ordered from Midway last week both have the same issue and exhibit similarly massive gaps, so I don't think it's the handle. Either the rear baffle is out of spec and way too thin, the bolt body is too long, or the receiver face is too far forward, somehow.

    Can you (or anyone) please measure the thickness of a rear baffle and tell me how wide it's supposed to be? Mine is .365".

    Thanks!

  12. #12
    Basic Member Robinhood's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    South Texas
    Age
    67
    Posts
    8,314
    If I missed something, My apologies. Looking at the picture(s), the rear baffle bolt handle relationship does not look like it is off. Ramp engagement is not mean the whole ramp should make contact.


    I tightened up the BAS and was still getting marginal extraction with a strange jump in the cam motion.
    This might be normal if you are not familiar with Savages.

    When you open the bolt, most of the rotation is lifting the firing pin using the cocking ramp, only the last portion of rotation is used for primary extraction. You probably rotate the bolt 40 degrees before that ramp makes contact, plus or minus. The ramp only needs to create a small amount of linear movement to do its job. Not .050".

    If the bolthead has been trued on the rear, if the action lug abutments have been trued, if the BAS screw is loose, you will not realize primary extraction.

    If the bolt and the handle interface is bad, what is the solution? If the old bolt handle functions correctly and the new bolt handle does not, you may need a newer styl bolt body. A thurough inspection might reveal the issue. Last resort would be machining the bolt.

    If the bolt head was machined, a new bolt head or modified/machined interface at the rear of the the bolt is the answer. It is a simple process with a small endmill.

    Same solution for someone that has removed more than a few thousands off the lug abutments. This is the only time I would consider millingthe bolt. Correct indexing would be crucial. If too much material is removed the timing will be advanced and there will be excessive primary extraction. The bolt lugs will bind before clearing the lug abutments in the action.

    I hope I didn't leave anything out or overstate the obvious. Good luck brother.
    I am sorry, I may have mispoke.

  13. #13
    Team Savage
    Join Date
    Aug 2023
    Location
    Southeast Louisiana
    Age
    74
    Posts
    322
    From the pictures the baffle primary ramp looks bad.
    http://www.savageshooters.com/attach...9&d=1736620159
    Looks like a new baffle would help. they are cheap.
    If Primary extraction is still slight shim the baffle?
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Baffle-Shim-2.jpg 
Views:	16 
Size:	31.8 KB 
ID:	11259

  14. #14
    Basic Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    23
    Quote Originally Posted by Robinhood View Post
    If I missed something, My apologies. Looking at the picture(s), the rear baffle bolt handle relationship does not look like it is off. Ramp engagement is not mean the whole ramp should make contact.


    This might be normal if you are not familiar with Savages.

    When you open the bolt, most of the rotation is lifting the firing pin using the cocking ramp, only the last portion of rotation is used for primary extraction. You probably rotate the bolt 40 degrees before that ramp makes contact, plus or minus. The ramp only needs to create a small amount of linear movement to do its job. Not .050".

    If the bolthead has been trued on the rear, if the action lug abutments have been trued, if the BAS screw is loose, you will not realize primary extraction.

    If the bolt and the handle interface is bad, what is the solution? If the old bolt handle functions correctly and the new bolt handle does not, you may need a newer styl bolt body. A thurough inspection might reveal the issue. Last resort would be machining the bolt.

    If the bolt head was machined, a new bolt head or modified/machined interface at the rear of the the bolt is the answer. It is a simple process with a small endmill.

    Same solution for someone that has removed more than a few thousands off the lug abutments. This is the only time I would consider millingthe bolt. Correct indexing would be crucial. If too much material is removed the timing will be advanced and there will be excessive primary extraction. The bolt lugs will bind before clearing the lug abutments in the action.

    I hope I didn't leave anything out or overstate the obvious. Good luck brother.
    Nono, I don't think you missed anything. I said "lol, you right" because I realized how dumb my theory about the chamber was after you pointed out the obvious!

    Okay, so today I came up with a better way of measuring the linear motion of the bolt and found that the original handle with its original baffle is creating 50 thou of linear motion now that the BAS is properly torqued down. I put some unsized cases into the chamber and extraction was positive. I was able to add 25 thou of shims between the receiver and the baffle before the timing was too far advanced. This wasn't necessary to get good extraction though.

    The new tactical bolt handle is only creating 30 thou of linear motion. Bolt lift feels way better with the added leverage, but extraction of the unsized cases was very marginal. I could add 35 thou of shim before there was a timing issue. I probably need a modern baffle if I want to use the tactical bolt handle.

  15. #15
    Basic Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    3,534
    I have never seen a rear baffle out of spec. The problem can only be caused by 2 things: 1. Bolt handle out of spec.(ramp cut too deep) and 2. Bolt body too long.
    "As long as there's lead in the air....there's still hope.."

  16. #16
    Administrator J.Baker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    NW Ohio
    Age
    50
    Posts
    6,775
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocketvapor View Post
    From the pictures the baffle primary ramp looks bad.
    http://www.savageshooters.com/attach...9&d=1736620159
    Looks like a new baffle would help. they are cheap.
    If Primary extraction is still slight shim the baffle?
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Baffle-Shim-2.jpg 
Views:	16 
Size:	31.8 KB 
ID:	11259
    Wrong! As Fred already pointed out, of all the parts that make up the bolt assembly the rear baffle is probably the most consistent.

    In this case, I'm wondering if his bolt body might be a bit long. We've seen plenty of factory bolt bodies that have been on the short side and the long side. If long it would cause the increase in the gap shown in the above photos between the baffle and action. I don't know the spec length, but I'm sure Fred has it written down.

    As for a simple solution, back when Savage had a bad batch of bolt handles go out the door a lot of guys just epoxied a U-shaped piece of shim stock to the front face of the rear baffle to close up the gap and get their primary extraction back. Might not be the prettiest, but it's effective. You can also test how thick of shim you need for good primary extraction by using a set of feeler gauges between the rear of the action and the baffle.
    "Life' is tough. It's even tougher if you're stupid." ~ John Wayne
    “Under certain circumstances, 
urgent circumstances, desperate circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer.” —Mark Twain

  17. #17
    Basic Member Robinhood's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    South Texas
    Age
    67
    Posts
    8,314
    Quote Originally Posted by S11033 View Post
    Nono, I don't think you missed anything. I said "lol, you right" because I realized how dumb my theory about the chamber was after you pointed out the obvious!

    Okay, so today I came up with a better way of measuring the linear motion of the bolt and found that the original handle with its original baffle is creating 50 thou of linear motion now that the BAS is properly torqued down. I put some unsized cases into the chamber and extraction was positive. I was able to add 25 thou of shims between the receiver and the baffle before the timing was too far advanced. This wasn't necessary to get good extraction though.

    The new tactical bolt handle is only creating 30 thou of linear motion. Bolt lift feels way better with the added leverage, but extraction of the unsized cases was very marginal. I could add 35 thou of shim before there was a timing issue. I probably need a modern baffle if I want to use the tactical bolt handle.
    Awesome! Since most cases are tapered, a small amount of movement is all you need. All savage rifles has a rear baffle that is loose, unlike a Remington or other where the primary extraction ramp is cut into the reciever.
    I am sorry, I may have mispoke.

  18. #18
    Team Savage
    Join Date
    Aug 2023
    Location
    Southeast Louisiana
    Age
    74
    Posts
    322
    His baffle looks like crap. How did it get like that? Dremel?
    Has that also damaged the ramp on the Handle?
    I'm wrong, Old style baffles were probably made like that.
    Might still give adequate primary extraction, not likely smooth though.
    He could have the bolt body milled, buy a new bolt body, new handle, or the cheapest option (a crutch for out of spec parts)
    Shim a new baffle a LITTLE to not throw off timing.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Dead baffle.JPG 
Views:	10 
Size:	29.4 KB 
ID:	11260
    Less than $20

  19. #19
    Administrator J.Baker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    NW Ohio
    Age
    50
    Posts
    6,775
    It's definitely got a chip out of it (MIM part), and no clue what's going on with what looks like a bevel going up the ramp. He already has a bolt handle for a round-top action, so updating to a newer round-top baffle would clean up the looks a little as well.
    "Life' is tough. It's even tougher if you're stupid." ~ John Wayne
    “Under certain circumstances, 
urgent circumstances, desperate circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer.” —Mark Twain

  20. #20
    Team Savage
    Join Date
    Aug 2023
    Location
    Southeast Louisiana
    Age
    74
    Posts
    322
    deleted

  21. #21
    Basic Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    23
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocketvapor View Post
    His baffle looks like crap. How did it get like that? Dremel?
    Has that also damaged the ramp on the Handle?
    I'm wrong, Old style baffles were probably made like that.
    Might still give adequate primary extraction, not likely smooth though.
    He could have the bolt body milled, buy a new bolt body, new handle, or the cheapest option (a crutch for out of spec parts)
    Shim a new baffle a LITTLE to not throw off timing.

    Less than $20
    Quote Originally Posted by J.Baker View Post
    It's definitely got a chip out of it (MIM part), and no clue what's going on with what looks like a bevel going up the ramp. He already has a bolt handle for a round-top action, so updating to a newer round-top baffle would clean up the looks a little as well.
    Thanks guys.

    I guess the question is whether I should just buy a complete new bolt for $140 so I can use the tactical bolt handle and sell my old one, which works with its original bolt handle now that I tightened up the BAS; buy a new baffle for my existing bolt and hope it works with the tactical bolt handle; or throw the tactical bolt handle in my parts bin and throw one of these clamshell bolt handle bodies onto my original bolt.

    https://deshind.com/product/savage-m...n-bolt-handle/

Similar Threads

  1. Failure To Extract and Primary Extraction
    By Robinhood in forum 110-Series Rifles
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 02-25-2017, 01:58 PM
  2. Using JB weld to improve primary extraction
    By pepper savage 111 in forum 110-Series Rifles
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 03-21-2016, 11:47 PM
  3. Primary extraction may be off
    By tomme boy in forum Axis Series Rifles
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 11-13-2014, 11:35 AM
  4. Adjusting primary extraction
    By 5 OClock Charlie in forum 110-Series Rifles
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 06-06-2010, 08:03 PM

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •