Well I just want to say this. And its in defense of the California Governor and others...surprise surprise.
Anyone with common sense, has burnt up a wood trash pile or is a blacksmith knows the more air you get to the fire the hotter it gets. I don't care how much fire hose water was available, how many firefighters there was is no way to control a fire that gets its oxygen replaced with wind. Blacksmiths especially know the supplied air the hotter; because more oxygen is available to burn and the hotter the fire. The wind not only moves embers, it provides another fuel source which is oxygen to keep the ember hot.
Even controlled burns would not of done anything for these fires, especially when embers have 50-100mph winds that carry them for miles.
This is a fire that had all the right things for disaster. Nothing more or less. And like many things with physics and chemistry such things cannot be controlled.
The only failure I see is they could of had tug boats along the coast dowsing the homes. Those tug boat water pumps move enough water that nothing would of burnt.
The images of people intentionally setting fires taints me and my opinion. Same with the wildfires in the northwest where every 3 or5 miles fires were starting on the side ofthe road. The cost of nany states are exahsting all the coffers so any response to any crisis is not possible. Ask the people of western N.Carolina. You have to start asking yourself, Is this an intentional act to criple our emergency response nationwide?
I am sorry, I may have mispoke.
Good point. I had no idea so many people were setting fires.Originally Posted by Robinhood
I also wonder about our insurance with all of this. No matter where you live even the largest companies have to be strugging to remain solvent with all of these disasters. I understand many states cannot get certain insurance, however where does that leave us. BTW FEMA is a joke. But thats politics so Ill leave it alone.
Larry
Insurance...Whats that?
I am sorry, I may have mispoke.
I spent 9 years as a Firefighter/EMT with a suburban fire dept. I rose thru the ranks, leaving when I was the Rescue Coordinator for all medical services and the Assistant Fire Chief. I constantly trained and held certifications in Heavy Rescue, Haz-Mat. I was also a Certified Instructor with the National Fire Protection Association and taught the Flammable Liquids and Gases Course at the week long Fire School at Iowa State University. We called the course "the pits" and it was the only live fire exercise taught and an extremely popular course. In addition, I traveled throughout Iowa teaching various live fire exercises to other depts.I have no idea a how many car, grass, structure fires I fought. Even did a train carrying Flammable tanker cars.
My assessment of the Cali fires is quite simple, it's a massive self created cluster**** and had little to do with the wind. The number one issue is the massive fuel load of Flammable vegetation that was left virtually untouched due to environmental regulations enacted at the state and local levels. In many areas, it is a crime to remove this fire load. Failure #1.
Number 2 is the lack of manpower and equipment. Cali has raped police and fire budgets and redirected the funds to social justice issues. The LAFD manpower is down almost 50% in 15 years but calls have more than doubled. This is insanity.
Number 3 is lack of water. This alone is criminal. When the largest man made water reservoir for firefighting, over 1.7 MILLION gallons is bone dry, then it's time to take heads. Those responsible endangered not only civilian lives, but directly endangered the firefighters. When your ass is fighting a fire, adequate and abundant water pressure is the fine line between life and death. I've personally experienced this as have most who have fought fires.
This issue was created by PEOPLE, not nature. By removing/reducing the fuel load, having adequate manpower, and abundant water makes this totally winnable and quickly.
I hope true justice comes to those involved in creating this scenario.
I respectfully disagree with 2 and 3. As an educated firefighter you know how Oxygen can help a fire. When its pumped in by as little as 10mph winds let alone 100mph winds, there is no water nor equipment that can contain it. No fireman's 4 inch firehose can stop a blaze fueled by high winds. A pumper truck "maybe" but no fireman with a hose.
Look up the Bessey fire in Nebraska. 200,000 acres burned and the heat was so great the air was literally on fire. That fire had sustained winds allot less than LA
Moreover, water is mostly used as coolant agent when applied to a fire. But the flames in California more than not approached more than 1500 degrees because of winds. Not to mention the burning of patrolium products we all have in our homes. Water would be useless as it will go to steam at 212F.
Lastly it was a natural disaster in the making. Spring rains thickened the undergrowth, then dry weather came and more dryness due to Santa Anna winds. You had double the fuel source perhaps.
Larry
Before this is all over, there are going to be numerous thoughts on this fire.
The winds, in this issue, took a disaster in waiting and we now see the results. My points are that this fire NEVER should have been given this opportunity. It was, to a great percentage, avoidable. Man can only control what man can control. We can't control the wind, but providing the best fire prevention available wasn't done.
As of right now, 15% of LAFD's fire apparatus is "out of service" due to budgetary reasons, that's 89 pieces of gear. Then you have the lack of manpower. Figuring that many of those pieces are a million dollars plus, the economic impact is staggering. They always seem to have money for landscaping, etc., but never fire and police. They can hand out BILLIONS in social spending for illegals, but not fix the fire equipment.
In firefighting, we were taught, and taught, that it was STEAM created by applying the water that actually did the most good as the steam rises and then falls onto the fire. It's firefighting 101. Directing a firehose capable of a 150GM or great directly onto most fires only creates debris from the water pressure, You can actually spread the fire. San Francisco learned from the Great Earthquake that it was the ensuing fire that destroyed the city. To compensate, they built a parallel water system fed directly from the ocean.
This is a pretty good synopsis to watch. Lots of good info here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1N2BwcAT-s
If you want to know how hot the fires were and how much the wind saturated the air with oxidizers. Pay attention to the videos and notice the melted aluminum rims. Aluminum goes to liquid at about 1221F. Polyester tires burn at 450F. Just saying!
We're on the same page I think, just different parts.
Once the fire started, under the current conditions and then the Santa Anna Winds, it was unstoppable. I agree with most of that. Not being able to put air assets up for water/retardant drops allowed the fire to expand exponentially. It had a good 48 hours headstart and it was purely a defensive posture. I fought many of them, called surround and drown. The problem was they lacked manpower, equipment, and water to even do that.
There is a science to fire. Man can't defeat mother nature, but we can mitigate her effects in many ways. Vastly reducing the fire load deprives it of fuel.
Now it appears that these are arson fires. Initial news reports are a homeless camp and illegals. Every single aspect of these events was preventable, but social justice idiots and environazis were enabled to prevent that.
Fighting fire has to overwhelmingly be about prevention, and this is an A+ reason why.
These fires may not have been avoidable.... but the decisions of those in charge definitely made the situation worse. I don't think they deserve a break at all.
We have had quite a few forest fires in the last decade and it is very telling. If they start on private ground then they are fought and put out.... if it is on government they are observed and monitored. On forest and BLM they have cut back the grazing numbers to the point that lots of grass is left- by the time fall comes around it is always dry and a real fire risk. You can watch the fires burn like crazy until they come to a fence line that borders private ground that was grazed off like it should have been and the fires instantly become fightable.
Also- not a firefighter.... but have put out crazy hot fires with water-- If that's how water worked then you would never be able to use it to fight fires....?
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