Reply With QuoteHA! Probably still going to be sooner than receiving my new Criterion barrel! Just hit 4 week mark this past Wednesday. It was 12-20 weeks when I ordered. Patience is a virtue.
Today's range session was not with the Savage but it was an Awesome range morning.Originally Posted by wbm
Looking forward to getting the Savage back to the range but that won't be for about 8 weeks.
Failure is not an option
HA! Probably still going to be sooner than receiving my new Criterion barrel! Just hit 4 week mark this past Wednesday. It was 12-20 weeks when I ordered. Patience is a virtue.
Yikes,
I got a Remage Criterion Barrel awhile back.
I was lucky, waited less than a month.
Got it from NSS
Failure is not an option
What is a "master gun smith"?? I know some really really good gunsmiths- but never heard them call themselves master smiths..... Is there an industry standard to become one or is it marketing by a specific institute that when you finish their course you are now a "master"?
So there are your average gun smith's and there are guys like Tussey, Turnbull, Huntington etc.
No they don't call themselves that, it is just a term.
Failure is not an option
Yup.. I got one from James at NSS as well. But I ordered the barrel in the cartridge & extras I wanted. Not what NSS wanted to sell to me & happened to have in stock. So for that, it’s 12-20 weeks.
Let me see if I can explain what you are seeing.
Do you know what a nut and bolt is?
You see the threading on and in each one?
Think of what you are seeing as the nut. The rate that the drill and reamer are sent in are the threads. Without lapping before the rifling is done, every defect will be transferred to the bore and grove. It is a cost cutting step to not lap the barrel.
This is the customer service explanation talking to a normal customer.
No. The defect is not transferred to the grooves unless the defects are deeper than the grooves, which is not the case here. This is chatter from the broach.
Talk to anyone that makes barrels that lap them. This is what they are removing. Usually it is done on a Sunnen lapping machine. But some are also hand lapped. It is not the BUTTON that savage uses. They dont broach cut the rifling. They button rifle all of their barrels. The broach would cut away the marks as you say but not in this case as they dont cut the rifling. I have been in the metal forming and machining trade since 98. I know first hand how these processes work and are done. Just because you know someone that calls himself a "master" does not mean you understand how things are done.
Hey! I knew a Master once! He was 100%, positively a MASTER!!
BATER, that is!
Ok,
Can we just let this thread die.
Since this thread was started by me just showing a pic of what I consider an unexceptable bore and unexceptable quality control, which it is.
This thread is becoming an I know more than you thread, so can we agree to disagree and close the thread.
Failure is not an option
OK I contacted frank Green from Bartlein Barrels. Here is what he has to say.
Yes, no and maybe so......
Yes the marks in the original pictures in this thread are bore reamer marks. The deeper the bore reamer marks and when you pull or push a button thru the bore it just presses the marks down into the grooves. The rougher the marks the more the barrel is going to foul. The marks are in the opposite direction of bullet travel. So basically it will act like a file.
Not all barrel makers pre lap after bore reaming. I know of some gun makers/barrel makers that are so cheap they drill and just pull the button thru.
We pre lap before rifling (after reaming) and finish lap after rifling. All we do is cut rifling.
Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
And a second message asking about why they are on the bore and grove.
That is one of the biggest misconceptions that the button rifling will displace and totally get rid of the tooling marks left over from the reamer.
One phrase that is used is that button rifling "will iron out the marks" It might to some extent but not always.
It goes back to.... Paying attention to the finish your getting out of the bore reamer. It's a big deal. At least to us it is. The nicer the finish the bore reamer leaves the less work you have to do to prelap the bore prior to rifling.
Here are a couple more pic's. The right pic shows the bore finish prior to a button being pulled thru. That finish isn't the greatest if that got bore reamed. Look close at that pic and you can see the bore reamer marks on the top of the lands.
Also you can see how the steel gets displaced and the stress it causes from the button going into the blank on the face of the barrel blank. Now try and imagine the stress induced into the blank. A good button maker will restress relieve the material after button rifling...and yes they are places that don't do it at all. Again residual stress in the blank no barrel maker can measure for.
For a rough number....a 30cal barrel that is suppose to have a .308" groove size...they might have to pull something like a .3115" button thru the blank. They get a different heat lot and that same button might not work and they might have to go to a .3120" diameter button. Also if they grab a different diameter blank that will play hell with the bore sizes. Going lets say from a 1.280" diameter blank to a 1.4" diameter blank the heavier wall thickness will make the bore/grooves tighten up and the opposite will happen if you go to a smaller diameter blank...the bore will get bigger.
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I have used a few reamers in my day. Both tapered and straight.. The most impressive thing about Savages reamers are how they make "non chatter" in the grooves and the bore. I like how the barrels are not inspected before they rifle them. Seems like a crazy way to do business. Scrap them, keep machining them, and let the customer find them. Still blows me away how they ream the grooves. Newfangled metal working.
The Dunning-Kruger effect is alive and well.
+1
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