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Thread: If you shoot <.5" groups at 50, will you shoot <1" at 100 ?

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    Basic Member thebeav's Avatar
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    If you shoot <.5" groups at 50, will you shoot <1" at 100 ?


    I've been enjoying my .223 and have often shot sub 1/2 inch 5 shot groups at 50 yards. Unfortunately 50 yards is the longest range I currently have.
    Would it follow that I could probably shoot less than 1" groups with my preferred ammo at 100 yards ?
    Just wondering out loud, as I can't do much else about it at this time.

  2. #2
    Administrator J.Baker's Avatar
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    Theoretically yes, but not guaranteed due to other factors involved. Further out you go, the more shooter error is magnified as well. Environmental effects (wind, etc) play a bigger factor as well as distance increases. Going from 50 to 100 wouldn't constitute a significant change in those effects, but they're still there.
    "Life' is tough. It's even tougher if you're stupid." ~ John Wayne
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urgent circumstances, desperate circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer.” —Mark Twain

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    I agree. The opposite can also be true. Seen guns shoot >MOA at 100yds, but <MOA at 200yds. Doesn’t really make sense, but sometimes projectiles don’t make any.. Just ask the Kennedys.
    My thanks to “6”. Only ANIMALS lack value for their younger LIFE!

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    Team Savage Stumpkiller's Avatar
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    All you can say is "the potential is there." There could be other factors involved; like nerves at shooting at an unfamiliar distance, smaller apparant target, wind, etc.

    I was out last week (chronographing a load to get a Leopold turret made up) and the influencing factor was a swarm of stupid blow and deer flies getting under my hat visor and behind my glasses. Absolutely distracting! I still had two sub-MOA groups and I was happy to call it a day.
    "They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance." Last words of Gen. Sedgwik

  5. #5
    Basic Member thebeav's Avatar
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    Thanks for chiming in guys.
    Hopefully, sometime this Summer, I can get to a friends place and try out 100 and 200. This guy has a farm with animals and I just don't want to be an imposition. I've been hoping he invites me as he knows I would like to try out the range. In the mean time, I'm just working on skills.

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    The hard part for you will be seeing progress. At 50yd you will measure progress in less than tenths of an inch. I know I get frustrated if I don't see significant progress when I am working on a skill.

    FWIW, if you want to save some on ammo, an air rifle at 25yd is a great tool for improving technique. Only problem is it would have to be one of better accuracy, which means a bit of money.

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    Basic Member hamiltonkiler's Avatar
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    I’ve seen a 7mag that would shoot no better than 1.5” at 100yds. But it shoot 2” at 300yds.

    I bought and went down the .22lr worm hole to enjoy shooting 50yds.
    It’s been really fun and challenging to 300yds.

    Cheers. A lot of fun to be had at 50yd. With a center fire in my opinion is not one of them.

    Cheers


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  8. #8
    Basic Member thebeav's Avatar
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    FWIW, if you want to save some on ammo, an air rifle at 25yd is a great tool for improving technique. Only problem is it would have to be one of better accuracy, which means a bit of money.
    Yes, 50 yard group measurements are tight. I don't measure them unless they really look promising.
    I do have a PCP air rifle that shoots pretty tight. I have a 30 yard range set up for that. That's the gun that got me started on this 'grouping' stuff. It's a fun enough gun to shoot, and ammo costs nothing. The only problem is, it doesn't make enough noise.

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    FWIW I've seen plenty of loads that would shoot tiny little bugholes at 100 fall apart at longer ranges but I've never seen a load that grouped well at 200 fall apart farther out.

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    Team Savage Stumpkiller's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by charlie b View Post
    The hard part for you will be seeing progress. At 50yd you will measure progress in less than tenths of an inch. I know I get frustrated if I don't see significant progress when I am working on a skill.

    FWIW, if you want to save some on ammo, an air rifle at 25yd is a great tool for improving technique. Only problem is it would have to be one of better accuracy, which means a bit of money.
    Excellent suggestion. I have several - one with a Benjamin break-action with a 4X scope and a HORRIBLE trigger. And about the same recoil as my .260 REM! Makes me really concentrate on the shot. The other is a Diana Chaser CO2 with suppressor and a red-dot (and red under-barrel light). That’s my barn-yard rat medicine. Lovely trigger and almost silent.
    "They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance." Last words of Gen. Sedgwik

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    Usually your groups will stay about the same size (moa) until the distance that environmental factors, bullet imperfections, differences in muzzle velocity, etc... become more of an issue. If I am shooting .5 at 100yrds it doesn't work out that it will be a 5" group at 1000.

    Also- (not to pick a fight) but the idea that a rifle will shoot a smaller size moa group at distance than it will at 100 yards is completely wrong. You have to think about it as angles- and if the bullets are moving in different angles at 100 yards then what is going to make them suddenly start to move back towards each other? The answer is nothing. It is a common idea- and I used to think that it was true and that some bullets needed a little more time to "go to sleeep"-- but it has been proven to be incorrect.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hamiltonkiler View Post
    I’ve seen a 7mag that would shoot no better than 1.5” at 100yds. But it shoot 2” at 300yds.

    I bought and went down the .22lr worm hole to enjoy shooting 50yds.
    It’s been really fun and challenging to 300yds.

    Cheers. A lot of fun to be had at 50yd. With a center fire in my opinion is not one of them.

    Cheers


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    Thank you for attesting to exactly as I said hamiltonkiler.

    But wait…it couldn’t have done that..! Didn't you hear it’s COMPLETELY WRONG?? Yeah, because of ya know, angles! Even though you did this yourself… just as I’ve seen the same.. But we couldn’t have, right? Because it’s- uh.., wrong? Angles bra.. angles.
    My thanks to “6”. Only ANIMALS lack value for their younger LIFE!

  13. #13
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    It is not all simple angles.

    Start watching at the 6:11 point.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpJ8EoGmLuE

    Can sometimes take a while for a round to stabilize after leaving the muzzle.

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    Cool video.... But you can not take a bullet that is heading one direction and have it magically change direction back to original point of aim--- Yaw or stability not withstanding. Even if a bullet was not stabilized and then did- it's still to late, it is already off course.

    It has been done many times.... electronic marker targets set up at 100- 200- and at 300 yards. That way you are not comparing one group against another group (which is worthless in this discussion)- but the same group at different distances- and they never had a example of better groups at distance. At one time a ballistician (maybe Brian Litz,, can't remember) was offering big money to someone if they could actually verify the better groups at distance (didn't happen).

    If you think about it the bullet would have to change directions twice-- once to correct for going off course, and then somehow it would know when it was in the right spot- and then change again so not to go too far the other direction.

    If you shoot better at distance I would take a very good look at your parallax.... it makes a bigger difference at close range.

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    Basic Member Fuj''s Avatar
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    I'll put it simply....There's a reason long VLD bullets, and fast twists are shot at
    distance, and those stubby flat base bullets with very slow twists are shot close
    in. Bring the right tool to the job at hand. As for bullets doing course corrections ??
    Happens all the time....It called "Conditions".
    Keeping my bad Karma intact since 1952

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    Thank you Fuj’. If we lived in a vacuum, the flight path would remain a dedicated course of angular position. But we live in the really-real world.
    My thanks to “6”. Only ANIMALS lack value for their younger LIFE!

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    Just for the record- from my perspective this is just a friendly conversation (except towards that one obvious tool) and not trying to create drama.

    "Conditions" would not be course corrections... because the conditions are going to be acting on all shots from a group... not just the ones that you need to change course. Also- the idea that vlds are not stabilized enough for close range is a reach. Tiny groups are shot at 100yrds with SMK, VLDs.

    Also- look at the record books for best groups..... the groups get larger at every distance (as any person with common sense would assume)... the smallest group will be at the muzzle- and groups will get larger at distance..... always.

    This idea comes from bad info-- "well we shot a 2 inch group at 100 and then we shot a 2 inch group at 300 so our groups are tightening up." You can not compare one group at 100 yards and then a completely different group at 300 and come to any logical conclusion.

  18. #18
    Super Moderator Blue Avenger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whynot View Post
    "well we shot a 2 inch group at 100 and then we shot a 2 inch group at 300 so our groups are tightening up." You can not compare one group at 100 yards and then a completely different group at 300 and come to any logical conclusion.

    Hypothesis..
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    It’s annoying that IGNORED content shows up when someone else quotes the GLADLY forgotten LOL!

    But, I Agree Avenger…. It’s Hypothesis. I like what Jim answered, “Theoretically”. Yes, theoretically a bullet continues on a straight path. Because we don’t live in a vacuum. And by that same information we can’t compare different groups. However, when an outcome can be duplicated, one can draw upon a reasonable conclusion. By the way… remember, we live in a world now where dudes can call themselves chicks & people believe a 5-200 Micron cloth mask can stop a Virus with a 0.1 Micron particle size. So we definitely live in Bizarro World now where no science is safe anyway!
    My thanks to “6”. Only ANIMALS lack value for their younger LIFE!

  20. #20
    Basic Member Fuj''s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whynot View Post

    "Conditions" would not be course corrections... because the conditions are going to be acting on all shots from a group... not just the ones that you need to change course. Also- the idea that vlds are not stabilized enough for close range is a reach. Tiny groups are shot at 100yrds with SMK, VLDs.
    No Drama Intended but, You do know the term "Runners and Pickers" ?? Conditions can
    change in seconds, Gusts, swirling winds, switching....
    Keeping my bad Karma intact since 1952

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    Apparently he doesn’t know fuj’. He is trying to poke the bear, which is why I have that one IGNORED. But I see the response through your message.
    My thanks to “6”. Only ANIMALS lack value for their younger LIFE!

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    Very familiar with all of those things.... (gusts- swirling winds, updrafts, wind direction changes and more. We have a personal range that goes out to a little over a mile)- and the idea that those things would ever tighten up a group is crazy. Each of those things introduces variables- and variables kill groups. The longer the distance and time that a bullet is exposed to those variables the more it is impacted- as well as shooter error and bullet issues. Each of those things that you mention opens up grouping... not closes them. A bullet can not do a course correction because it has no idea of where its course should be.... it can be deflected by other forces- but the idea that's going to increase accuracy over 5 shots- nope.

    Also- this discussion started with the statement that a certain rifle did this phenomenon all the time- and others have seen it repeatable as well-- so if that is the claim then getting lost in a discussion of conditions is mute, even though still interesting.

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