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  1. #26
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    some people on these sights take great pride in misleading people please study advice carefully That said Try Kroil for copper you'll be amazed

  2. #27
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    amazing you try to help people and throw out an idea and all you get is a bunch of smart a.. crap. and stupid comments just hurts the sight. everybody knows more than the next guy. makes you feel real welcome.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rifleman#1 View Post
    amazing you try to help people and throw out an idea and all you get is a bunch of smart a.. crap. and stupid comments just hurts the sight everybody knows more than the next guy makes you feel real welcome.
    Rifleman, what are you talking about? No one said anything against Kroil?? Several other people simply gave their own usage. It’s ok people use different products. That’s not an attack on your own. Take it easy man.. you’re fine here.

  4. #29
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    OK so another thread that made me do research. ROFLMAO

    Had to look at the Kroil SDS to see what chemicals in it were copper solvents. A combination of alcohols and ketone with some petroleum type stuff. I don't see how any of these would react with copper. But, there is a proprietary chemical that may be the key. Since it turns the copper blue it will be an ammonia or lye type of chemical.

    I thought ammonia or lye based copper solvents were hazardous enough. Then I looked up the SDS of the KG-12 non-ammonia copper solvent. Cyanide. Pro-shot and Boretech use ethylene glycol monobutyl ether. Wipeout is a concoction of some pretty bad stuff as well, Toulene and heptane along with Stoddard and naptha.

    I could go on with warnings, but, in my youth (and less frequently later in life) I always used a lot of solvents when cleaning car parts and such. Never used gloves. Never really used respirators either, used the solvents inside garages and such too. Am still here and kidneys/liver doing fine. :)

    But, I think from now on I will use an exhaust fan and gloves. :)

    Thanks for prompting my research!

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Hoback View Post
    Rifleman, what are you talking about? No one said anything against Kroil?? Several other people simply gave their own usage. It’s ok people use different products. That’s not an attack on your own. Take it easy man.. you’re fine here.

    Sorry Rifleman. I have not been following this thread closely. I certainly was not making fun and I have been known to use Kroil in the bore of a CS barrel for storage. So, I have a clear epoxy mixing cup, a 1961 penny and Kroil. Tomorrow evening we will get results. If none, we can wait a few days.

    The truth is, some things you are not sure of will surprise you. Some people are full of it. You never know. This one I didn't know and chemicals can do some interesting things when talking materials. An unknown PH can play tricks on you. Wish me luck.

    EDIT: I also put Wipe Out in another container with a penny. I may not post photo's but I will post results
    One Cannot Be PC And Be Intellectually Honest!

  6. #31
    Basic Member Robinhood's Avatar
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    Wipeout: While picking the penny out there was blue coloring all around the subject. In less than 10 minutes the tarnished penny was clean not bright like a new penny but like a chemical clean.

    Kroil: No change. No green or blue coloring in the liquid.

    More to come.
    One Cannot Be PC And Be Intellectually Honest!

  7. #32
    Basic Member Robinhood's Avatar
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    I woke to find

    WipeOut: Liquid is a very dark blue. No transparency. The penny appears to be loosing copper from the surface. Subjective. I weighed it at 3.1 g so we will see tonight.

    Kroil: From my perspective I believe the tarnish has diminished considerably. Copper has not been impacted by the Kroil. No discoloration noticed in the liquid.
    One Cannot Be PC And Be Intellectually Honest!

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robinhood View Post
    I woke to find

    WipeOut: Liquid is a very dark blue. No transparency. The penny appears to be loosing copper from the surface. Subjective. I weighed it at 3.1 g so we will see tonight.

    Kroil: From my perspective I believe the tarnish has diminished considerably. Copper has not been impacted by the Kroil. No discoloration noticed in the liquid.
    So it would appear that Wipeout and no doubt others have an affect on copper.
    But wouldnt the affect on steel barrels be the only real concern?
    Ive always run dry patches thru after cleaning regardless of the bore cleaner i used.
    Then a patch with kroil which is left in the barrel and a coating on other surfaces as well.
    The only problem ive had is with a Jewell trigger being contaminated by the oil.
    Storing the gun laying down instead of upright in a safe would probably solve that.
    None of the other triggers have been affected.
    Prior to using Wipeout, i was using BoreTec Eliminator for copper, and Slick 2000 for carbon.
    It was reccomended by the old Precision Shooting magazine after a 2 year study of all then made cleaning products.
    I still feel that was a good combination, but i was shown that a patch run thru after cleaning produced lots of blue when using Wipeout.

  9. #34
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    There is a concern about leaving some of these products in a barrel overnight.

    Eric Cortina and others use CLR for powder fouling on stainless barrels. I tried it and it does work. He also said he filled a bore and let it soak overnight. I probably would not do that due to the caustic agents. Stainless is good stuff but I don't think I'd push my luck with that. I also would not use it on a CM barrel due to the caustic nature. And it will quickly remove bluing.

    Ammonia is another one that really should not be left in a CM barrel for hours on end. Stainless might be ok. This is one of the reasons I went to the non-ammonia copper removers. Wipe, let sit for 30seconds, check barrel for copper, repeat. Usually takes less than 15 min to get a fouled barrel cleaned of copper.

    I will have to try Wipeout as it does not seem to contain any caustics or acids. Don't see how it dissolves chemically reacts with copper, but, since it seems to will try it.

    FWIW, KG-12 does not turn blue when it dissolves copper. Different reaction. To test the Kroil I'd find a copper fouled barrel and apply it. Watch to see of the copper goes away.

  10. #35
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    I just recently tried Kroil to see what it would do for my '91 Argentine Mauser's barrel. My go to cleaners are Bore Tech Cu+2 and C4 and didn't seem strong enough to get through 128yrs of fouling.

    So I bought some Kroil and ran wet patches through until they were basically clean, then 4 wet patches, and let sit for 24hrs. Repeated this process 3 times. When I ran a dry patch through after 24hrs, the patch was BLACK, second was black, third was a light gray/black, 4th had some light gray/black streaking. After 3 round, first patch was black, second light gray/black streaking, third basically clean. I patched it dry and ran my Teslong down the bore. No carbon at all, clean to the steel, with copper shining right back at me.

    I ran 3 or 4 patches wet with Cu+2 down the bore, let sit the requisite 15mins. The first patch down the bore afterward came out the darkest blue I've ever seen from a rifle barrel. I repeated the Cu+2 process once more, dry patched, then borescoped, no copper at all just clean old steel.

    While the Kroil didn't remove copper fouling, it did loosen it, and I'll have a can of Kroil on my bench from now on.

  11. #36
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    Kroil I have used for at least 20 years and HAS turned every patch green or blue green definitely in that color spectrum i've put through many many rifles so do all the tests you like i sure your penny will eventually disappear completely > Maby your barrel had nothing but carbon no copper who knows i know what i have seen with my eyes and the articles i read about it many years ago so go ahead and use your water based ammonia products make sure you get it out of every nook and cranny ( promotes Rust ie water based.) Ill stick with Kerosene (what Hopps #9 is) and Kroil for copper fowling which my barrels are free of. thank you. O yea Chuck Norris doesn't sell his piss! O yea I oil my trigger on occasion don't you!

  12. #37
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    O and! Walt Berget used it for 1shot break in and cleaning procedure to prevent copper from fowling. Your penny melt yet!. good hunting mike.

  13. #38
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    Here’s what I know guys. I’ve been a custom Knifemaker for many years. Metal ETCHING(which is what the fear is from harsh chemicals), plays a big roll. And even before that, I studied metallurgical & alloying compositions. Even the HARSHEST solvent, with the highest concentration of ammonia does not react with Iron, Chromium or Molybdenum. Any adverse effects of PURE ammonia on steel is attributed to something called Stress Corrosion Cracking...which is the result of impurities & high temperature. It’s something else....NOT etching. The low % in solvents will not result in this. But of course, ANY ammonia is highly reactive to Copper.

    If you want I can do a light etch on a piece of 4140 and leave it in ammonia for several days. The steel will be fine, and the light etching will be unaffected. Now, I would do this in plain vinegar, the it WILL etch the steel.

    What started all this HOOPLA, was the early half of the 20th century, many, many people used STEEL brushes in the bore. Some people thought that very fine steel wool would certainly be safe....right? WRONG! Unfortunately, the stigma stuck, as people read the stories. “It MUST be the ammonia hurting the barrel!!” It’s not. Obviously it’s not good to leave any solvent in the bore, day after day. Just as it wouldn’t be good to leave mild SOAP WATER in the bore! But it’s the abrasion of cleaning itself which wears down the rifling. Just as the abrasion of shooting does.

    Oh yeah.....I concur, Hoppes is delicious smelling!

  14. #39
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    always heard ammonia was water based that being said i have cleaned my muzzleloader with hot soapy water for 20 + years. and used bore butter by Thompson Center only its absolutely spotless perfect not a spot anywhere in the bore or on the blue. use what you choose never had a problem with how i roll. cheers.

  15. #40
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    Hot soapy water was also used back in the day when corrosive primers were being used in military ammo.
    The end of the barrel would be placed in a container of the water and scrubbed with a brass brush on the rod.
    But no doubt back then as is the case now, there were varying opinions on many things.
    I have always felt the brushes caused more harm than the bullets, but obviously not all agree.
    The only one needing to be happy with his own system of doing things however is the user.

  16. #41
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    Dave,

    Thanks for that. I am a simple mechanical engineer, chemistry interests me but my dad was the chemist in the family.

    I wonder if the stories about ammonia came from the carrier (sometimes water) that the ammonia based products seem to use. I could see someone leaving Sweet's in a barrel for a week, running patches through and then see rust pits.

    And, yes, vinegar is an acid so will etch steels over time.

    What components of Wipeout cause it to react with the copper? Toulene, heptane, Stoddard and naptha are listed in the SDS.


  17. #42
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    Ei EI EI O its off to work i go my method has years of proven results for me

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by charlie b View Post
    Dave,

    Thanks for that. I am a simple mechanical engineer, chemistry interests me but my dad was the chemist in the family.

    I wonder if the stories about ammonia came from the carrier (sometimes water) that the ammonia based products seem to use. I could see someone leaving Sweet's in a barrel for a week, running patches through and then see rust pits.

    And, yes, vinegar is an acid so will etch steels over time.

    What components of Wipeout cause it to react with the copper? Toulene, heptane, Stoddard and naptha are listed in the SDS.


    I guess it would be Heptane. It’s listed as “Not recommended” on Brass. I know that Toluene is not corrosive to Brass. And the Stoddard & Naphtha are just types of Mineral Spirits, which are also safe on Brass. Only leaves the Heptane. But even it, I think is pretty mild.
    Corrosive compounds to brass, rather the main element Copper, are Ammonias, Peroxides, and Sulfuric/Nitric acids actually will dissolve the copper. So I’m not too sure about the Wipeout. I’ve never used it so I don’t know how effective it actually is on copper fouling. Obviously, ANY cleaning solution will rid the bore of copper over time. They just differ is “wiping” the oxides away, vs dissolving it immediately.

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rifleman#1 View Post
    always heard ammonia was water based that being said i have cleaned my muzzleloader with hot soapy water for 20 + years. and used bore butter by Thompson Center only its absolutely spotless perfect not a spot anywhere in the bore or on the blue. use what you choose never had a problem with how i roll. cheers.
    The Household Ammonia is actually Ammonia Hydroxide & water. Pure Ammonia is a gas and is classified as a “weak Base”. NH3 boils at like -20f or something! So it must be stored under pressure.

  20. #45
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    Rifleman, I went in this really hopeful brother but after 12 plus hours the copper penny soaked in Kroil looks clean but it still has a patina. There is no green or blue coloration in the container with Kroil and a penny in it.

    The container with the penny and Wipeout is bright copper color that appears like it is being attacked chemically or a low PH, not polished or smooth. The liquid is a very dark blue and is obviously having an impact on it.

    What my test did not show was if the penetrating action helped separate the copper from the base metal. What it did show is that Kroil does not attack or dissolve copper in the time frame of late last night until approximately 1545 CDT. 12-14hrs(i don't remember when I dropped them in.) It shows that within minutes, Wipeout was attacking and displacing copper.

    If you believe my test to be wrong I encourage anyone to duplicate it with at least using Aero-Kroil as part of the test.

    Personal opinion. I continue to believe kroil is a top notch product. For copper removal I will use something else and Wipeout has proven to be able to do the job. Better than I thought it did.
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  21. #46
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    Robinhood, where did you find a penny that was made of copper? I haven't seen one years!

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Hoback View Post
    I guess it would be Heptane. It’s listed as “Not recommended” on Brass. I know that Toluene is not corrosive to Brass. And the Stoddard & Naphtha are just types of Mineral Spirits, which are also safe on Brass. Only leaves the Heptane. But even it, I think is pretty mild.
    Corrosive compounds to brass, rather the main element Copper, are Ammonias, Peroxides, and Sulfuric/Nitric acids actually will dissolve the copper. So I’m not too sure about the Wipeout. I’ve never used it so I don’t know how effective it actually is on copper fouling. Obviously, ANY cleaning solution will rid the bore of copper over time. They just differ is “wiping” the oxides away, vs dissolving it immediately.
    Thanks Dave. That was kinda my take on it.

    But, if Wipeout turns blue with exposure to copper that indicates there is an ammonia or sodium/potassium hydroxide present, which is what is confusing to me.

  23. #48
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    Amen on the real copper penny! I am not beyond learning just read the details from WIPEOUT and think i will try it. although it is the exact same process and procedure ive used with Kroil. Kroil's info even states about aiding in removing copper fowling. good shooting .

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orezona View Post
    Robinhood, where did you find a penny that was made of copper? I haven't seen one years!
    Any penny dated 1982 and earlier is 95%+ Copper.

    Charlie: I agree. That reaction with the Wipeout indicates an harsh Copper chemical reaction. And I absolutely trust Robin’s testing. It’s a head scratcher to me as I looked at the MSDS as well. The chemicals alone, on paper, don’t constitute THAT reaction. But can’t argue the results. But the same applies for Kroil results. Of course, like I was saying earlier, the Kroil will STILL clean the Copper fouling by simply WEARING it down with every patch/brush contact, through chemical abrasion.

  25. #50
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    simply not true i dont scrub my barrels with a brush i brush a few times then start the Kroil patch -dry patch process . let sit repeat . anyway nobody is going to agree on anything . and if you think Kroil or any one else lists all there proprietary ingredients i think your fooling yourself everyone would be stealing your formula . thanks for the sparring session didn't know i joined a boxing web sight. mike.

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