Will 77 grain bullets stabilize in a 1:9 twist barrel?

[hamiltonkiler]

Well fact is i shoot 69 gr SMK bullets in a factory Savage 9 twist barrel also.
But in a 22x250 AI, not a 223, and they shoot as well as i can shoot them.
Would it be worth my time seeing if 77 gr might shoot as well or better?
Well too each his own, but not in my opinion.
I can see myself using the real heavy 22 caliber bullets in a hot rod wildcat like a 22x243, but without the powder what’s the point?
As for SMKs not being a hunting bullet, don’t be betting anything you cant afford to lose on that, because you for sure will lose it.
Same goes for most if not all the other so called match bullets.
Another little secret as it pertains to (ahem) precision reloading, and factory guns like Savage.
All my SMK (match) bullets come to me in jars, like rinsed out empty large peanut butter jars.
Reason is they are all seconds, sold by the pound at the Sierra store.
Would you like to know what the Sierra employee shooters use?
I mean if they are seconds, are they still SMKs? Why not just trash them and start over?
So lets be sure we get the powder charge to the exact 1/10 of a grain here folks, and the velocity
cant vary by even 5 FPS if we want real accuracy. Lol
Much has to do with mind over matter, and it only matters to those of us who mind.
The main reason I make myself unpopular for saying these things other than it being what i think, is that it would be very easy for the new shooters who haven’t the experience level as yet to be convinced that all this is normal and necessary in the name of accuracy.
Fact is it isn’t, and far from it, at least for the vast majority of us.

Well spoken.
Who doesn’t want the best performance of what they have. I would jump straight to a 300 if that was the case. But In my opinion nothing is more fun than shooting the light recoiling .223/ 5.56 cartridge. And talking price point and shooting at mid range.


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[charlie b]

Well fact is i shoot 69 gr SMK bullets in a factory Savage 9 twist barrel also.
But in a 22x250 AI, not a 223, and they shoot as well as i can shoot them.....................
The main reason I make myself unpopular for saying these things other than it being what i think, is that it would be very easy for the new shooters who haven’t the experience level as yet to be convinced that all this is normal and necessary in the name of accuracy.
Fact is it isn’t, and far from it, at least for the vast majority of us.

I guess you miss my point too.

The 77gn bullets shoot better than the 69gn for me in my .223 Axis.

If you don't want to try them then don't. Does not matter to me. I am glad you are happy with what you shoot.

[mikeinco]

you see why he is on my ignore list.
cannot stay on topic...223/9 twist and 77's
thinks he is better than you because of it.
just an old man lost to the real world.
even the boss noticed his misdirection in a 223 thread.

I guess you miss my point too.

The 77gn bullets shoot better than the 69gn for me in my .223 Axis.

If you don't want to try them then don't. Does not matter to me. I am glad you are happy with what you shoot.

[yobuck]

Look Charlie my comments have nothing to do with whatever bullets you or anyone else want to use.
What ever works well for you works well, what’s to argue about that?
My point was probably missed by you and no doubt others.
A 69 gr bullet, or a 77 gr bullet wont change or improve a 223 anymore than adding 10 ply tires will improve a 1/2 ton pickup.
It’s still a half ton pickup and always will be. You want more truck, buy a 1 ton pickup.
Being an expert at tuning the 1/2 ton, is akin to precision reloading a Win Mag for 2000 yd shooting.
Or 77 gr bullets in a 223 for 1000 yd.
I doubt you will achieve more accuracy with a 223 by using heavy bullets in them regardless of how you load.
As recently say 1990 we wouldn’t even be having this discussion.
Mainly of coarse because there was no internet and sites like this for us to discuss things.
There were also no places where one could go to determine cartridge performance from their Lazy Boy chair.
There is but one thing that has changed the dynamics of long range shooting and hunting.
And it has nothing to do with accurate reloading, high BC bullets, or Lazy Boy chairs.
It’s the only reason we can even be having conversations about shooting any cartridge with whatever bullet at the distances we’ve been discussing. That of coarse is the modern day scopes and mounts.
But because we can, does that also mean its a good thing?
Well i guess a 1/2 ton pickup will always be the most popular, so I’ve probably answered my own question.

[hamiltonkiler]

https://www.shootingtimes.com/editor...1-review/99098

I’m no scientist but I can read. Sometimes I read things a couple times. I have found that at 600+ yds in a 1-9 barrel you will find no better bullet than the 77gn smk. In a .223 casing or a 5.56 casing.
I’m not talking built guns or crazy cartridges.
A stock gun that ammo is available everywhere, anyone can shoot it.





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[tomme boy]

None of the heavy tipped bullets are going to be stable in a 1-9. They are just too long to stabilize. Some guns have a hard time with Hornady 68gr also because of the length.

Sierra is a shorter, fatter bullet. That is why it stabilizes. Weight alone is not the single factor. You have to add the length.

[yobuck]

Well i cant speak for that, but my guess would be that it has something to do with energy, and knock down power.
I doubt very much they are encouraging the use of that cartridge for long range sniping.
But with regard to that have you read the book written by the Seal sniper Chris Kyle prior to his being killed?
You wont be learning much about shooting or ballistics or get any real insite as to how they, Seal snipers, prepare for a shot.
But you will get his opinion on which of his numerous issued guns he preferred to use and why, and how he personally prepared for a shot.
You might be surprised to learn that his average kill was at a distance of 400 yds. His favorite gun was his 300 Win Mag with the Nightforce
Scope dialed to 400 yds and not changed regardless of the distance. He simply held up or down as the distance required.
With the Win Mag, perfect hits weren’t much of a requirement.
For the very few extreme distance shots he took, he used his issued 338 Lapua.
So while we sit here in our Lazy Boys discussing this stuff, those who are actually doing it might have different opinions.
Yes you can dial a scope to allow for reaching distances beyond that for which any cartridge was designed to be shot.
With perfect conditions, and good shooting you might even have a decent result,
But in 15 minits from now it might be that you cant hit anything.
Which is why the 1000 yd heavy gun world 10 shot record has been stuck at about where it is for about 30 + years.
But eventually, somebody always wins the lottery.

[charlie b]

So, yes, this is just about the finding that the 77SMK's (and in CFJunkies case the TMK's) do stabilize in the Savage 1:9 barrels at moderate ranges, AND, they seem to be a bit more accurate for some of us than the other offerings out there. NOTHING ELSE.

For someone else who wants to play with their Savage .223 it is information for them to consider.

None of us claim them to be able to turn a .223 into a magic long range cartridge.

[yobuck]

https://www.shootingtimes.com/editor...1-review/99098

I’m no scientist but I can read. Sometimes I read things a couple times. I have found that at 600+ yds in a 1-9 barrel you will find no better bullet than the 77gn smk. In a .223 casing or a 5.56 casing.
I’m not talking built guns or crazy cartridges.
A stock gun that ammo is available everywhere, anyone can shoot it.





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I read the article and found it to be interesting. Black Hills is a well known ammo supplier for the military, and is the brand used by Chris Kyle to establish his U S kill record.
Certainly if your in the military and have been issued a rifle requiring 5.56mm ammo you would want the best ammo available.
Likewise if your dead set on owning just one rifle for your personal enjoyment.
There were a few words in that rather long article that jumped off the page, at least for me.
Probably most would not have the same reaction as i did however.
Those words were (37.25 minits from a 100 yd zero to reach 1000 yds.
Thats 149 1/4 min. Clicks folks, count the number you have available in your scope with the mount setup you currently have.
Now just for kicks check out say a 6x284 or a 243 with 105 gr bullets, or one of the 6.5s with 140s.
Animals don’t shoot back at us, but if they did very few of us would have enough gonads to hunt them.
The few brave enough to do it would be very selective on their gun choice, and so was Chris Kyle.

[mikeinco]

any adults that read and comprehend, will note that chris kyle says in his book
that most of his kills were done with a 300 win mag basically some variation of a
mark 13 sniper rifle out of crane. the ammo for the early rifles is military 190 grain with a spec
distance of 1200 yards(now called mk248mod0). the later ammo is a mk248 mod 1, which
features a 220 smk, a federal case, h1000 powder, and a nickle mag primer. it is loaded to aprox 2800 fps
in the short bbl rifles(24") and gets more in the 26.5" bbls. accuracy spec is 1500 yards with a higher 68kpsi.
both federal and bha produced the 190 ammo, but fed got the 220 ammo contract .

[charlie b]

You guys keep pulling this further into the weeds.

[charlie b]

Up to now almost all of my shooting with the 77gn bullet has been at 100 to 300yd. Previously I have shot the 69gn SMK at 600 and had close to MOA groups but have not been able to break into the sub MOA at that range. Not bad but not great.

I have had two sessions now shooting the 77SMK at 600yd. I have been comparing IMR4166 (21.5gn) and Varget (23.5gn). There is about 100fps difference in muzzle velocity according to book load data. OAL for both is 2.28" They are very close in group sizes at 100yd with the 4166 being a little better by about 0.1" on average (my lack of shooting skill makes this small a difference kind of a wash). FYI I am shooting an Axis HB, 22" barrel in .223 with Boyd's Pro Varmint stock and Vortex 4-16 Diamonback scope. It is not pillar or glass bedded, just bolted into the stock. Shooting is from an inexpensive Caldwell bench rest with a bag at the rear, and a mediocre shooter

The first session was with 4166. At 600yd 5rounds went into 7". No wind at all on that day. At 100yd that same day I had two 5rnd groups of 0.4" and 0.6". Group size at 600 was such that it made me wonder if the bullets were stable. I figured it should be well under MOA.

Today I had the Varget load set up at 100, 400, 500 and 600yd. Wind started light then went to a little gusty, 6-9mph at 45deg to the bullet path. At 400yd and light wind 4 rnds went into a 1.8" group. At 500 yd and light wind 5rnds went into a 3.5" group. At 600yd the wind had picked up. I held off by 6" to account for the wind. The horizontal group size was 5.2". The vertical group size was 2.7". At 100yd with the gusty wind I had three 5rnd groups of 0.4, 0.8 and 0.9".

I was not trying to figure out the gusts of wind. At our range it may be a low point in the turbulence at the bench but the wind flags show significant wind ast range. I set my wind hold at a 'median' point and shoot a string, without waiting for a 'calm' point. I know this is not a good technique but I am a relative novice to wind doping at medium and longer range.

So, for me at least, I will venture a guess that the 77gn bullet is stabilized out to 600yd. Is it stable further out? According to theory it should be stable as long as it is supersonic, which for this load is just beyond 1000yd. I will shoot it at 1000 just for grins but that is not my goal. My goal is to have an accurate shooter at 600yd and so far the 77 SMK's are working the best.

[CFJunkie]

Nice work, charlie b.
Thanks for the good reporting.

Shooting in a brisk wind with a relatively light bullet is really challenging.

[charlie b]

Thanks. I don't mind a steady wind but when it is turbulent it is a pain

[yobuck]

Thanks. I don't mind a steady wind but when it is turbulent it is a pain

Well Charlie i’ll Stick my head out of the weeds again just long enough to say there may be ways to deal with that.
As Yogi would say, when you come to a fork in the road, take it. Lol
If you were to visit the website for “the original 1000 yd benchrest club”, commonly referred to as the Williamsport club, you can look at the equipment list of the various shooters as for gun and scope, as well as the name of the gunsmith who built the gun.
Remember, that club was the first in the world to shoot bench rest matches at 1000 yds.
There were no rules applying to it at that time so they made up their own.
Thats now been over 50 years ago, and although there have become quite a few other 1000 yd clubs around the country, most of them run under NBRSA rules.
But not Williamsport, and i believe one or two others. They shoot ten shots for record regardless of wether it’s light or heavy gun, which would be the main difference in rules.
If you were to check the stats of the “world open shoot” held in July, you would find that by far the most popular cartridge used today is the 6mm Dasher. And you will also find that a very high percentage of the ones used in that match were built by the same gunsmith.
Beyond that, many of those shoot the same load using the same brand custom bullets.
Point is, there really isn’t much difference separating many of the shooters as for equipment and/or ability.
But there can be a major difference in the shooting conditions during the time frame of the relay they were drawn for.
So, that means it can actually come down to the luck of the draw, or the lottery if you will to a very large degree as to who wins and who doesn’t.
BUT, people being people, and always looking for ways to improve their own chances, have developed ways of dealing with it at least to a degree. The big thing that evolved as a result, is beating the wind, And that requires shooting ten single loaded shots asap, like in less than a minit.
And in order to accomplish that, it requires a very expensive joy stick controlled front rest along with lots of practice.
But of coarse that could lead to questions about the best gun, load, shooter, etc. couldn’t it?
Have we become better? Or better at beating the system? I guess it makes little difference if the goal is winning.
Again Charlie, you may well be at a fork in the road.


’

[charlie b]

LOL yeah I think you are correct. When I look at benchrest competition I see lines of flags from bench to target, and that's for 100 or 200yd, not long range. I did watch them check the wind and sights carefully and then run 10 as fast as they can.

At our range I put up some ribbons at each of the target stands (every 100yd). So, I can at least see the difference along the range. Problem is they are frequently different second to second. Left at 100, right at 300, left again at 500, calm at 800, etc, etc. Next couple of seconds and every thing shifts.

I WILL get better at this!!!! I insist. :) FWIW, I am not competing, except with myself. After I check this one at the longer ranges I will go back to a bipod and rear soft bag. What I like to do is 'plink' at soda cans at 600yd :) I also have two small gongs I sometimes set up (4" and 6") at different target stations to shoot at. The down side is I cannot measure group sizes when I do this, but, it is much more fun to see the cans explode :)

[charlie b]

Had a very good day at the range today, except for my 600yd target No wind at all and then it worked up to about 2mph :) This series was all fired from a Harris bipod with a rear bag, my 'normal' shooting setup for this rifle.

At 200yd I fired two fouling shots, then two to check zero. Adjusted windage and then an 8 round group that ended up being 0.9" Not bad for me.

Set to my 600yd dope and fired a shot at my 6" gong. Hit it dead center. Then fired a 5 round group that was horrible, around 10". I did not know how bad until I went and looked at the target. I have no idea what I did, but, it was bad.

I then shot a bunch of 'plinkers'. Soda cans, gong, etc at various ranges from 200 to 600.

Then I decided to try 1000yd. Wind was 1-2mph so it was a perfect day for this. I checked my ballistic calculator and it said 33.5MOA up from my 100yd zero setting. I started turning the turret on my scope, two full turns plus the 3.5. There is a berm with some white rocks on it I can see impacts. So, I fired one. About 2 ft low so moved the setting up and fired again. About 10" high. Down a bit. Hit just to the left of the rock about 6"!! Then fired 15 more rounds at that setting (+36MOA). There was a 12" gong out there so I shot at it. All but 4 rounds hit the gong with the misses just off the left edge by a few inches.

This satisfies me that the 77gn bullet is stable out to 1000yd. Based on bullet drop the muzzle velocity is just under 2700fps (2690?).

It also encourages me to keep shooting at the longer ranges. :)

PS I was also surprised that my scope had enough adjustment range for this as I never checked he specs on it.

[CFJunkie]

That is great information. I am happy to see the 77s maintain their stability out that far.
I post a like but apparently that feature has died with the new server.
Sound like you had some fun testing. That is the most important thing.

[charlie b]

Last post in this thread for me. Had another good day at the range. I also had some of my new Lapua brass loaded up. Same load, 77SMKs, 23.5gn Varget, Rem BR primers. Shooting off a Harris bipod with rear bag.

Shot a group at 200 yd just to warm up a bit. 1.5". Adjusted windage just a bit.

At 600 yd 5 round group was 3.9" Not too bad for me.

Then 1000yd again. The wind was not bad but was swirling, 2-3.5mph. At 1000yd that translates into about 20-30in of windage. Took me 10 shots to get windage and elevation just right. Then yook some shots at a milk jug I had out there. Took me 8 rounds to hit it. Just to the left, just to the right, little low, little high, repeat. Hit it half way up on the right hand side (wind was left to right). I also shot a 10 round group which measured 18". I consider that a success considering the wind being good for 5-10" of that.

Two other guys were shooting a 10" gong at 1000 with their custom chassis 300 Win Mags. They were only hitting every other shot so I didn't feel too bad :)

NO, this is NOT a 1000yd target bullet. BUT, it is stable out that far. I am impressed at how well that little bullet does at range.

PS when it did hit the milk jug full of water it was not impressive. It jumped slightly but no big explosion like at closer ranges.

[TommyD11730]

Having read this thread I thought I too would try 77 TMKS in my 12fv.
For reference my pet load is 69SMKs at 24.6 grains of Varget. Consieved accidentally as they turned out a COAL 2.237 VS the 2.298 I had intended. They shoot very well. Less then .5moa at 100 and under 1 moa at 200.

So today I gave the 77 TMKS a try. With ten thousands jump the COAL is 2.385. Powder was 21.8 and 22.0 varget.

Accuracy at 100 yards was good. Matching my 69s. With only a few rounds left I tried the 77s with 21.8g varget a try. Oh boy, they sank like rocks and the group really opened up.

So I'll load some up at 22.5 next time out.

How did everyone else do when moving out past 100 yards?

[hamiltonkiler]

Having read this thread I thought I too would try 77 TMKS in my 12fv.
For reference my pet load is 69SMKs at 24.6 grains of Varget. Consieved accidentally as they turned out a COAL 2.237 VS the 2.298 I had intended. They shoot very well. Less then .5moa at 100 and under 1 moa at 200.

So today I gave the 77 TMKS a try. With ten thousands jump the COAL is 2.385. Powder was 21.8 and 22.0 varget.

Accuracy at 100 yards was good. Matching my 69s. With only a few rounds left I tried the 77s with 21.8g varget a try. Oh boy, they sank like rocks and the group really opened up.

So I'll load some up at 22.5 next time out.

How did everyone else do when moving out past 100 yards?

I don’t reload. I shoot a standard mk262 mod 1 load. They are still .5moa at 500yds with no wind. 2.5-3” groups all day. Ringing 10” plates at 700yds.


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[charlie b]

FWIW, the above loads were 23.5gn Varget with 77smk in my 22" Axis heavy barrel running 2800fps.

[TommyD11730]

FWIW, the above loads were 23.5gn Varget with 77smk in my 22" Axis heavy barrel running 2800fps.

At a COAL of 2.28?

Looks like I have plenty of headroom in terms of my powder charge.

Thank you sir.

[CFJunkie]

with my 12 FV .223, my best loads are seated at 2.296 to 2.305 C.O.A..L. with the 77 SMKs.
For the 77 TMKs my best loads are seated at 2.339 to 2.342 C.O.A.L.

But my chamber has over 3,000 rounds down the tube.

[hamiltonkiler]

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