For those who measure runout on cases or loaded rounds, which concentricity gauge(s) do you use and what are your overall thoughts on them?
Thanks
Printable View
For those who measure runout on cases or loaded rounds, which concentricity gauge(s) do you use and what are your overall thoughts on them?
Thanks
I made my own. But I have access to the tools.
I was gifted a Sinclair back in August. It seems very nice.
Like Robinhood I've done my own, however with my latest cartridge
and the Lee Collet die, I just put them in the box and head to the
range. :thumb:
Nice. I'm hoping to get there some day.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuj'
You talking about getting to the range or making your own whatchamicalits?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill2905
I use the Sinclair concentricity gauge. I looked at the Hornady gauge where you have the option of straightening out the bullet, but my only concern (and not founded in any type of science) was if I straightened out any given cartridge, it would then have a different neck tension than the others. The small amount of neck tension difference may or may not have an effect on velocity differences between shots.
Well, I would like to get to the range more often. But, I was referring to improving my loading process to a point where I can just load it and shoot it with confidence.Quote:
Originally Posted by yobuck
Straightening rounds doesn't seem like something I would be interested in doing. I would prefer to figure out why they don't conform and correct the cause. How do you like the Sinclair gauge? Do you find it fairly easy to use?Quote:
Originally Posted by Steeltrap
The gauge is very easy to use. Making adjustments for the cartridge to fit is as easy as falling off a log. The unit has a handle on each "bearing seat" to move back and forward. I align the cartridge....tighten the rear first, then move the front to the front of the brass just below the shoulder, and can adjust the micrometer to measure neck runout or bullet runout.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill2905
Well assuming the case is uniform to start with, wouldnt a better quality seating die be the better way to go about that?Quote:
Originally Posted by Steeltrap
And how much does any of that mean if the chamber isnt up to par as well?
How true.....Nothing like perfectly straight and true ammo, but theQuote:
Originally Posted by yobuck
chamber was cut with a "Detroit Lean".
Agreed, and it's not hard to check your chamber for concentricity to the rifling. I do it by drilling and tapping the flash hole on a cartridge that the neck measures just a thou or two off center and seat a bullet slightly into the lands, then screw the cartridge onto a section of cleaning rod and insert it into the chamber and remove.
What I will sometimes find is that as I rotate the cartridge 90 degrees at a time and re-insert, I may find little or no drag in one position, and a lot in another. This tells me that as the off center cartridge aligns favorably with an off center chamber, the two complement each other to eliminate drag on the cartridge.
21st Century here. Easy to use and may be operated with its wheel or your very own thumb.
I had the Hornady and returned it.
As above, if not concentric, the fault lies with how the finished product was produced or the case maintained or altered.
For long distance I shoot a 6.5x55 cartridge. I have a RCBS competition seating die and it works very well. However, if the case isn't concentric from the start, the seating isn't gonna help. I have a Redding type S neck sizing die as well......but if I F\L size the brass, I use a good old Lee F\L sizer that gives me neck alignment like nothing else.Quote:
Originally Posted by yobuck
I can't speak to chamber's as the OP's question wasn't about that.
When does that stop us?Quote:
Originally Posted by Steeltrap
So if we took our ammo and checked it for runout, then marked the head of each case with a sharpie at the high point of the runout, then placed each round in the chamber with the mark at the same location, would it help the accuracy of that ammo?
Ha!!! True enough!! :rockon:Quote:
Originally Posted by Robinhood
IMHO I'd say no. Runout is runout and if the bullet isn't entering the chambering straight...it's (allegedly) going to give the bullet spin a tiny bit "wobbly" and cause larger groups.Quote:
Originally Posted by yobuck
Now, in my experience (and I'm no expert by any measurement) that inconsistent neck tensions. bullet concentricity etc will be noticed at ranges of 400 yards and beyond. MOA or a tad over MOA at distances less than 400 yards will still allow you to hit a 5" target......but after 400 yards things really open up.
FWIW
I've got the Hornady and the RCBS gauges. Hornady is a little bit easier/faster to use.
I've got the Sinclair and Hornady gauges. I've found what I use them for was really unexpected, I kind of fell down the rabbit hole. I would be interested in the 21st Century tool as a reasonable substitute for the Sinclair gauge, but I have not used one. First, I found the numbers themselves, on these 2 tools, and on the same loaded round won't give you the same runout. They will show variance in the same area, but I spent a great deal of time moving the indicator and never got them to read the same. I don't use the Hornady tool much anymore, gravitated to the Sinclair. These tools don't make straight ammo, they just measure the results. The good that I found was my results were very consistent. If I loaded 50 rounds, and I found 3-4 thou variance, I would find the same variance on about 48 out of the 50. So that must mean my procedures are consistent and that's good, but the tools I was using were only capable of that level of accuracy / variance. So I found myself buying additional die sets, and additional seating dies, and comparing them against each other. By working with a couple of friends, I even had the opportunity to test 3 die sets of the same manufacturer for the same cartridge. I found they were all consistent, but different. Hmmm, so even within the same die maker, some dies produced straighter ammo than others. You see, this is a dangerous rabbit hole. Finding this out is why I will never buy a used die set again. Because I found I owned a couple of die sets that were bad enough, I really shouldn't be using them if I wanted straight ammo. And then some others, by the same die maker, were really really good.
So then I started testing different ways to resize a case, and seat them. I was looking for what to do to produce straight ammo for all future cartridges that I would reload - you know, what's the one way to do this that I get the straightest ammo possible from the start? That changed what I buy for tools. I now have 2 approaches that I take when buying my dies.
First, if I'm looking for the quickest, fastest and least meticulous, a Lee collet die and a Sinclair seater hand die.
Second, if I'm being more particular - I run with a Redding body die, followed by a Sinclair neck die with bushing (after trimming the necks) and a Sinclair seating die.
The seating die I found to be the most critical, you HAVE to fully support the case during seating, and it's just my feeling the Sinclair seating die is the least expensive of the various high quality seating dies, and does as good or better job than all that I tested.
The run-out tools are just measuring tools, they don't make straight ammo. They only measure the results of the tools you use to make ammo. So if you want a measuring tool, to make straight ammo, you are probably headed down the path to having multiple die sets of various brands and quality levels to learn how to determine which tools make straight ammo.
There WAS a day when I only had 1 die set for each cartridge I reload.... That day has sailed... Anyway, that's the rabbit hole I fell into when I got tools to measure run-out.
Oh, and before it's mentioned, I could not measure the difference in accuracy at the range. At least not with light barrels and distances out to 300 yards. Maybe a better shooter could?