Yes thinner barrels ARE inherently less accurate for MANY reasons not only related to tuning. Could a thin barrel shoot a better group than a thicker barrel? Sure. Anything can happen once.Originally Posted by foxx
The factors keeping the deck loaded AGAINST thinner barrels is long.
1. Faster, larger and less predictable resonance.
2. More and less consistent barrel torque due to rotational mass.
3. Thermal issues. Even if you wait 1 hr between shots it will be inherently less stable.
4. Weight/balance. A 6lb gun may be just as inherently accurate as a 12lb gun. Shooting it accurately is ANOTHER issue.
Yes a light barrel can be incredibly accurate. A HUMMER light barrel may run better than a regular heavy, this is an exception to a rule however. Until I see the short range BR guys heading toward sporter weight barrels, I will keep this opinion intact , in my mind anyway.
PROVING anything with a GUN on the INTERNET is difficult as we still aren't 100% AWARE of EVERYTHING going on in a gun during firing. We are close, but not there yet.
And i will stand by my previous offer. Any one who has a Savage that won't shoot 1 inch groups can send it to me... i will make it shoot 3/4 inch groups, free of charge. However, if i can get it shooting 1/2 inch groups, they will owe me $300 or they let me keep my new, extraordinarily rare "find" for myself.
My only rifle as a kid was a Remington Targetmaster 510 (12/1941 date stamp) from my great grand father. It was very accurate. I dominated the range in the boy scouts. My first center fire was a Ruger m77 in 7mm-08 around 1984. 3/8 in 3 shot groups was the norm. My second C.F. was a Mark V in 7mm mag from my dad. Quarter in 3 shot groups was typical unless I started flinching... which I started to after a while so I sold. I had only the 510 for probably 10-15 years and when I decided to get back into target shooting ( i left hunting after being shot at twice in one season) I purchased the savage edge in 7mm-08. Using factory ammo I was so disappointed in my 1 inch groups. I thought all rifles shoulf shoot like the ones I had owned previously. Was it me or the cheap Edge? Reading on forums like this one I learned STUFF to try. Put a Nikon scope on with Leupold rings; Sanding the barrel channel to insure clear free floating; doing the trigger job. That gun went to a typical 5/8" 3 shot gun with the occasional 5 shot group under 1/2". I then bought a Vanguard in .223. and I found it would shoot around the half inch mark with 40 gr rem HP's. so we got my wife a model 10 in .223 and it was all over the place. So I learned to reload and things got better except the model 10. Again reading threads here and there I decide to try the card stock under the barrel. 69SMK's and 53 vmax are 3/8 -1/2" now. So I bought a 11VT in 223 and a 12FV in 204 ruger. Those that say you just need the right load in a savage I'd have to agree with. All I needed to do to the FV and VT was add decent glass. Half inch groups are a breeze with both of these rifles stock, with many load combinations. Maybe I'm just lucky but I really believe with the right load and a little tweaking a savage will shoot consistent small groups. My vanguard on the other hand, one day the holes will touch and some days I'm pressed to get 1-1/2" out of here.
I think I will just get a heavy barrel in 7.5 Swiss, save the fright let alone the risk!
When the weather improves I will put the Pencil 06 on the 116 LA and flog it a big harder.
I once shot a sub 1/8th moa 5 shot group with a stock 243 Mod 11 with factory Rem. 80gr corelokt... Does this mean it's a sub 1/8th moa rifle ? I don't think so.
I take at least FIVE groups of 5-shots and average the results. Then I declare what the rifle really is.
Best Factory Savage barreled rifle I shot is a 10-fcpK 308win that averaged 0.6moa with handloads and 0.7moa with FedGMM 168smk. Shot the odd 1/4moa groups with it, but no way in hell was it a real 1/4 moa rifle.
^^^^exactly
Skinny barrels have their place. Any gun that I am going to carry further than from the truck to the bench.
To say a skinny barrel is less accurate would require defining a little.
Can it sit there like an 8 lb bull barrel and take shot after shot without accuracy deteriorating. No. But that is not what it is designed to do.
I can assure you that for the first 2 or 3 shots a well built light contour rifle can keep up with the Bulls
That first cold bore shot is what is important to a hunter anyway. I can't remember the last time I used a second shot on game.
Now an absurdly lightweight rifle can be extremely difficult to shoot accurately but that has nothing to do with the accuracy of the barrel. I like a little weight in my barrel. I like a #3 Bartlein contour for my hunting rifles. A little weight forward works wonders steadying that shot.
I take a bit different tack on it, though I do not excuse things.
Mostly it seems to me that if I do my end, I can shoot 5/8 MOA groups or better, I have not had one of those 5 holes in one groups. 1/4 is the best.
If I can shoot 5/8 MOA, I suspect the rifle is good for 1/4 MOA. That's just a guess.
I have done that a few times, not consistently. Some days its been a number of those 5/8 and below, other days its closer to 1 inch.
I think the upper end is me not the gun.
I had one odd flyer show up, got annoyed and put 4 more into the group. 9 shots were 5/8, the flyer took it out to 3/4 or so. I think that odd one was me.
Short of putting it into a fixture its a hard one to say.
It would be interesting to find someone who has done that.
Poor guess. Unless you're REALLY bad, which I suspect you are not, the 5/8 MOA groups you shoot are not going to be 1/4 MOA groups in the hand of an expert. I assume we're talking 5-shot groups @ 100 yards.
Getting most any decent gun to shoot 1/2 MOA groups take some care with reloading, pretty good shooting skills, and proper rests, etc. But it can be done even with box-stock Savage rifles without too much trouble. Groups measuring 5/8 MOA, like yours, should be achievable with half decent factory ammo and ordinary sand bags.
Going from there to .333 MOA groups is very much more difficult, usually starting with a high-end barrel swap, premium reloading components, and ultra careful shooting/reloading procedures.
To get down to 1/4 MOA groups is another HUGE leap and very very few people shoot 1/4 MOA groups with any reliability. You can recognize them because they're usually called "Champion".
Of course, sometimes all five rounds lurch into the same hole for unknown reasons. That is NOT the same as having a rifle good for 1/4 MOA. Luck is not the same as precision, as we all know.
Try this: Put five bucks down on the bench and invite the guy next to you to pick it up if you can't put the next five rounds into less than (fill in the blanks here) MOA. I'll do that in windlass conditions at 1/2 MOA but only for two of my rifles, both of which often win 600 yard F-TR and 600 yard BR matches. But that's my personal limit. Anyone guaranteeing 1/4 MOA for the next 5 shots should be suspected of being a space alien.
After working up a load, every Savage I have owned out the box was a tack driver. You have to reload or find the ammo that works in your rifle.
[B][SIZE=3]Dennis[/SIZE][/B]
Define Tack driver
Then put 5 five shot groups on a target and show us
To clear some things up, all my shooting is at 100 yds, or occasionally (though rare) if at 75 due to a scope capably, its converted to MOA.
1. If you can shoot 5/8 MOA groups, then what is the real accuracy of the gun? Has anyone shot off bags as best they could and then had the gun in a fixture (not lead salad))
2. My brother and I have been working at this seriously for 4 years. On the average he is a bit better than I am. He always was a better hunting rifle shot, I saw him make a 450 yard (paced) shot at a moving Caribous after running downhill for 150 yds (threw himself proen and nailed it)
3. He to has that issue that on some days his shooting is poor (we define poor at 1 inch.
4. Both of us have custom setups with after market barrels (and I have one Savage Varmint and as well as a 270 and 30-06 Pencil barrel.
5. We both reload, his are a bit higher degree qauity than mine, I would call us medium advanced.
6. I have shot two loads that were identical, one was a lousy 1 inch and the other 3/8 right after another. Granted it was cold and I felt I lost focus on the 1 inch, the 3/8 right after that was in worse considering as light was going but I was annoyed and focused and it came together .
Personally I believe I am the worst variable. My personal belief is that its all about consistently of the shot once you are below 1 inch, the further down you get (1/2 and under) the non linear as more difficult. As time ahs gone by with the same equipment I have gotten more and more 5/8 and under.
That is where I would like a better experiment or report of it. Again, if you work down to 5/8 MOA pretty consistently, then what is the real accuracy of the rifle?
Being a mechanic/technician I think its 1/4 or 3/8, but I could be totally wrong, that is what I would like real evidence for.
You target boys.....
Shoot something full of red sauce in the right spot at YOUR REQUIRED DISTANCE.
If the furry (or Kevlar skinned) bastard goes down, you have an accurate rifle.
(Insert new debate about hunting vs target shooting here.)
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RC, I see where you are coming from and I agree. If with human factor is involved the greater the variance in a group will be, especially with a lighter rifle. Heavier with all the whistles and bells will not be as bad from day to day because it is more forgiving to human error. There is a really good chance if you consistently shoot 1/2" to 3/4" with a given rifle, there is someone else that may shoot closer to perfection that may shoot under 1/2" and maybe 1/4" to 3/8". We all like to think we can shoot just as good as the next guy or gal but that is not the case or all scores would be equal. Lets face it most world class shooters are using equipment that is at top end and the winner or loser has to do with the human factor. We are not clones and we are not robots we do not all get the prize.
And as Mountain Man said it doesn't make a rats a$$ difference if it is 1" or 1/4" with shooting game or 2 legged predators at reasonable distances, but the target shooter is shooting for bettering his own personal best, not for bragging rights, in most cases.
I have indeed hunted. Sadly, due to the refusal of two parties to buy a pull up clamp for a special cable plug (said cable about is big as your forearm and special twist, insert arch flash free plug) my back got wracked and a disk ruptured. No sympathy asked for, I have survived too many all to close to certain death or severe debilitating injury to complain. Those were of the type either you escape entirely or you don't come back intact if at all.
My days of chasing through the hills is over, so it is indeed poking holes in paper that has become my entertainment.
When I was after game, 1.5 inch MOA was fine and I only missed once at something around 500 yards when I failed to trust my setup (on the other hand I never expected to have a shot up here like that, its extremely rare).
So the hole poking is not for public bragging or trying to convince someone I am something special, its what I do for my own satisfaction.
It has been most interesting. I shot 22 rifle at my one year of University and did it well. Huge help was I was a mountain of muscles coming off an arduous construction season. I don't have that anymore. I did have the capability back then to shoot groups that were at the low end of completive with their shooting team. They always were more consistent .
So I suffered from overly high expectations that I could get into sub 3/4 MOA off a bench easily to be dashed.
And there in lies the rub, I have shot enough 1/2 MOA and under to believe I can do it, I have had enough drift off to 1 inch that I feel its me.
Its that consistency aspect that intrigues (plagues) me.
As with wrestling, focus is seemingly the key, but also being relaxed etc.
And then the question comes, just how accurate is a gun if you completely take the human factor out of it?
Reading the Secrets of the Huston warehouse was very interesting in that regard. A
And after the responses, I will return to the pencil barrel 06 to start with and see if I can get that thing to shoot.
That is another challenge and should be most interesting how good. I have at least a benchmark for what I can do on a given day and the two good guns to cross check to.
If I can't shoot those on a given day I know the pencil is not going to work either.
Talk is cheap its like a few morans on sniper central that if you own a savage it has to be junk, well I own 2 of them that do very well for me and I was a Rem only guy for along time, Untill their reutation went to heck and they try to pass an 870 ot 700 off as a quality product of today NOT Hardly, Its a lot of factors come in to play I personaly have 1/2 moa days also 1" moa days, The right load for the rifle this is WAY more important than most think I don't care if its 45.00 a box top of the line or 20.00 a box its what that rifle likes cost has little to do with it, A good quality scope, And you have to be able to shoot, Period I know guys you could hand them a 7000.00 set up and another guy with a 400.00 set up could out shoot them you cant buy experience if you could the military would be full of top notch snipers, Buy what you can afford and practice as time goes by you can and will upgrade, BE YOUR OWN MAN, Get to know your rifle Then the pride will come from with in, Not idiots on the internet!!!!!
Huh?
Certainly not saying Savage is junk, just I do better with the HBs.
Last I checked I was my wife's man, being my own man went out the window when I got married!
I don't think we are talking idiots or general intent, a serious question that I think is well worth discussion.
It certainly has persuaded me to give another run at the 06 and 270 Pencil barrels (I didn't give the 270 much of a chance)
It would be great if I could get 1/2 MOA (even sub 3/4) out of them and sell them with the load on the site!
Like^
I have shot # 11 1.34"+/- 1.24+/- 5 shot groups. @ 500 yds last summer ! And some 1" @ 400 yds
With m12 6.5 creed
140gr hybrids
42 gr H 4350
Hornady brass
CCIBR Primers
And have two witnesses. They call my rifle the laser .
My brothers howa 1500. 20" shoot 2" @ 500 yds
168 smk
2000mr
CCIBR
HORNADY BRASS
Gee wiz its not that hard to do
But it shoots like crap till you get at lest 20 round down the barrel.
And i don't clean the barrel! Unbelievable accuracy!
All three of my savages are shooters. I have a old late 50's 99 in 308 thats a 1in to 1.5 inch gun with 150 grain federal fusions. 165 grain nosler ammo is 1.5 to 2" for 5 shots letting barrel cool. I have a model 16 wsm which is the best shooter of the bunch that rifle shoots federal 180 grain bullets into tiny groups, I have shot several 3 shot groups with that gun where all shots are touching. Its the most accurate rifle I have ever owned(I have marlins,rugers and remingtons nothing super high end) My old long action 223 will shoot 1" groups with several different factory loads 55 remington corelokts are always in the .75 range. Those are all 3 shot groups. Which is what I think most people on here are saying when they have a sub MOA gun, three shot groups not 5. Problem is for me that I am not a great shot and will typically pull one out of every 4 or 5 shots.
I'll take consistent luck over precision any day
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If I could just get my luck to be consistent !!!
My axis 30-06 is sub moa. usually in the 3/4'' range.
No, all mine are 5 shot groups minimum. If I think I pulled it I will shoot 6 just to prove (to myself) myself and the setup can do it.Those are all 3 shot groups. Which is what I think most people on here are saying when they have a sub MOA gun, three shot groups not 5. Problem is for me that I am not a great shot and will typically pull one out of every 4 or 5 shots.
Most of the time it falls at or inside the group.
At times I will shoot 9 shots. I did that a while back when I had one fall outside the group. The 9 were 5/8, the other one takes it out to 3/4 (I have to dig that one up). 8 shots were about 1/2, the one round opened it up to the 5/8.
I do hope no one indicates this is exaggeration. I do this for my entertainment and or satisfaction, not to make myself out to be something I am not. My brother does the same thing. We have gone down this trail together though different takes on doing it (he likes Bull barrel on 1903 Chasis with a couple of other guns thrown in)
I share what I do so that others have an idea what can be done by what I think is a mid maybe a bit above average shooter. Some do much better.
If they do I guess I could do like you had to in flying, land and to prove you did, get someone to sign off.
I am told that 10 shots is really the measure of a gun. You have to be consistently good for that to prove what the gun can do vs the package of the gun, the shooter, the loads and the scope.
What tickled me the last outing was I had one group that was plain bad. I need to measure it, cringe worthy, inch or better.
Wind was blowing enough to knock targets over, light was going, something said try one more round (I also did a COAL adjustment, have to look at the notes for what it was)
The 5 shot group went in at 3/8. Ok, cold, worn out, tired, but I can go home feeling pretty good.
It turns out my other gun had shot a 1/4 group, with the light situation I mistook a connection to a black part as more of a 5/8 group.
That is with what I think is pretty good kit. Good stocks (laminated) reloads I have been fine tuning, Bull barrels (though the Varmint shot some 1/2 MOA groups prior to that) good scopes, good bases, front and rear bags. Not F class but maybe a step below it.
What I can say is the good groups were a lot more erratic in the past and working the same loads I have been getting more and more 5/8 and under.
Using a benchmark that the best shooter has a hard time holding 1/4 MOA, it would seem the guns are sub 1/2 and the error is the shooter.
Not sure if that makes them 3/8 or 1/4 (ball park) but it would seem someplace in there. That seems pretty impressive hardware wise for a put together non target action, good quality buttons rifled but not cut rifled barrels. Good glass (actually one is a 12x Cabella that for some reason my eyes do good with)
Could I be blowing smoke, sure, I guess I could put you in touch with my wife and ask her what the integrity factor is.
this topic seems funny... how come on other brand boards you don't read where are all these 1/2" moa _________ rifles coming from.
Chet
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