Reply With QuoteDeer. That's what we are talking about
Was it an elk or a moose ?Originally Posted by Bullitt 454
Deer. That's what we are talking about
Here in NC we no longer have any rifle restrictions on deer. That means you can shoot them with a 22lr if you want to, although I dont recommend it. Any decent centerfire will take a deer. If you want to shoot bonded bullets thats fine with me. I shoot 140 grain Amaxes in my 6.5CM all year. Target shooting and deer hunting. They work like a champ and hit right where I need them to because I practice with them all the time. They do the trick.
Wow, that's pretty disheartening to have a hunting bullet not even break the shoulder. May I ask what caliber the gun was? I haven't used nosler ballistic tips much for hunting, mainly nosler partitions for elk, and Sierra gamekings and prohunters for deer. I have zero experience with Barnes and do not claim to know much about them. But my assumption is they are a deep penetrating elk type bullet comparable to a nosler partition. I have noticed on our small blacktails I primarily shoot here in oregon that the sierras definitely kill lung shot deer quicker than a nosler partition. But the partition is FAR superior for elk due to it's deep penetrating abilities
Last edited by Londerko; 04-21-2014 at 08:35 PM. Reason: Adding info to reply
The temporary wound cavity is larger. It's caused by greater hydraulic shock as a result of higher velocity. Assuming the 150 and 100gr bullets are fired from the same cartridge, the velocity of the 100gr bullet will be considerably higher. The higher velocity of the lighter bullet will cause greater "ripples" through the tissue. The permanent wound cavity will be similar.
You can't change the laws of physics, but in this scenario no laws are being manipulated. In the case of terminal ballistics the higher velocity will cause more damage when a projectile of similar diameter is fired at higher velocity. That's the concept behind the effectiveness of magnetically powered rail guns. That's what makes a high speed "magnum" kill faster and ruin more meat than a 45-70 with a 500 grain cast bullet. In order to get the best of both worlds you use a high quality premium bullet and drive it fast. It gives the same "shock" while helping to ensure deep penetration and bullet integrity.
Andrew
Might help if one reads the referenced article. As it happens there is a lot of experimental evidence to show that the premium bullets perform better than classic bullets when the product of depth and diameter is considered.
The wisdom about how large that wound channel needs to be goes back to our Mesolithic (5,000 BC) ancestors and has continued through to today. Most of us didn't know that but a team of astute archeologists made the connections. The reference and discussion are in the Ideal Bullet Weight paper.
JA that article proves that you can use a lighter grain copper bullet
Compared to cup and core because they hold together better and penetrate further, that does not mean that there will be greater internal damage- your stuck on the fact that you can use lighter bullet in all capper. Have you gutted a deer after being shot with a light constructed bullet vs a all copper or partition or heavy bonded bullet? One has a nice 2 inch whole through the lungs and the other is completely liquified.
Last edited by Luke45; 04-21-2014 at 11:50 PM.
"Further, test results suggest that the recommendations are effectively independent of caliber. A 100-grain .243 bullet behaves the same as 100-grain .264 bullet when both are of the same design. Similarly, a 150-grain .264 bullet behaves the same as a 150 grain .308 bullet."
This statemen discredits this article as well. Sectional density plays a significant part in terminal ballistics
This is also the idea behind the Berger "hunting" VLD's.
I do agree that the "exploding" bullet kills quicker, provided it explodes in/near the vitals. The downside, to me, is the lead dust fragments that saturate the meat in all directions with some of these bullets. My last buck was killed with a 150 gr .308 dia. Hornady SST, MV of 2900 fps, shot through the shoulder. The cup mushroomed perfectly and lodged against the offside shoulder, no exit wound. The lead core disintegrated, with part of it veering up into the neck, breaking it. The rest of it shattered into minute particles and saturated both the on-side and off-side shoulder, ruining the meat in both. The vitals were all mush. Needless to say, the buck went down instantly. But I had to throw away both front quarters, and part of the tenderloin. And if it hadn't broken the neck, it may have run off far enough to be lost, as there was absolutely no external bleeding. I won't use that bullet again.
The Barnes open as fast or faster than jacketed bullets. They are designed to open quickly. They just don't come apart. So you get rapid expansion and deep penetration. Which what a bullet is supposed to do.
They are accurate also.
Don't forget that the bullet completely changes shape within 1.5" to 3" of impact, making the remainder of the penetration the semi-ball to almost flat one sees with cup and core bullets at high velocity or the longer ball-like shape with premium bullets.
The laws of physics must be obeyed. The shape of the transformed bullet and its new frontal area define the sectional density and shape factor for about 90% of the penetration.
Hence, the out of muzzle sectional density and shape factor, combined with muzzle velocity, define the exterior ballistics, but the way the bullet comes apart defines the terminal ballistics on game.
http://www.chuckhawks.com/sd.htm
Try to tell the 6.5 mm crowd that SD doesn't matter
Nice group!! All being said about expansion/ penetration, is that your shooting a 257 wby, which is probably in the top 1% of velocty for a deer rifle. So the bullet has a very high amount of energy wen it hits and can open rapidly due to it's large kinetic energy compared to it's wieght. In Essenes you have the best of both worlds, shock power and penetration dueThe Barnes open as fast or faster than jacketed bullets. They are designed to open quickly. They just don't come apart. So you get rapid expansion and deep penetration. Which what a bullet is supposed to do.
They are accurate also.
To the high impact
Velocity as well as tough bullet construction.
If the bullet comes apart it loses it's weight. Then it cannot penetrate.
The Barnes also excel in the .224 bullets. I'm not a fan of using the .223 for deer hunting but if you do the Barnes is they way to go.
I started using Barnes with a 25-06 and a .243. Going from 120 gr to 100 gr and 100 to 80 really made those rifles much more effective. I had generally used Nosler Partitions but when I saw the benefit of the Barnes I switched. Another over looked option is the 130 gr in .308. You can get velocities of 3000-3100 using them.
I'm a little amazed we were able to kill a deer or bear 40-50 years ago with the antiquated bullets we used back then. By today's standards they should have just bounced off the hide of a mangy 100 lb goat.
Bill
Each morning eat a live green toad, it will be the worst thing you'll have face all day.
Bullitt454,
I've used a .308 cal 125 Sierra prohunter quite extensively out of a 30-06 going 3100+ fps. It flat out drops blacktails in their tracks, even if you don't hit bone. So I see the benefit your talking about with the lighter bullets, it's always penetrated plenty deep on deer. But I wouldn't even consider using it for elk because of the light jacket, would you consider it with the Barnes 130?
I'm going to stick to what I know and I've not shot an elk. I would speculate that the heavier bullets would be better. But I would probably pick a 165 gr Barnes for an elk if I was using a .308 or 30-06.
Now I want to be clear if you hunt and shoot game at ranges past 600 yards then the Bergers may be a better choice. You are dealing with slower velocities out there and lower energy levels.
Time of flight keeps me from shooting at game that far.
BillPa forty years ago I was using Nosler partitions. For all the money I invest in deer hunting I'm not not about to scrimp a few dollars on bullets.
But there were a lot of deer that were lost back then too. People also didn't shoot much past 100 yards then either. Scopes were not as reliable.
It was a complete failure of a Barnes (it completely failed to expand) on an elk from a 30-06 on a Montana Elk hunt several years ago that made up my mind. My brother and I haven't hunted with them sense....for Elk it will always be an AcuBond or Partition...both have produced 100% tag fill rates for me without failure on elk and moose (all but a couple have been 1 shot kills). Understanding bullet and metal dynamics are important, and Barnes weakness is that they really require velocity (and plenty of it) to be fully effective 100% of the time. Nether the Partition nor the AccuBond are nearly as velocity sensitive as the Barnes are and I for one, don't want to have to sit there on a hunt with my rangefinder and say, yeah, nope...gotta pass on that big a$$ bull because my Barnes may not be effective at that range....
All bullets that are marketed as medium game hunting bullets will kill a whitetail with a hit in the boiler room at adequate velocity. The OP's position was that lightly constructed bullets kill quicker, and more efficiently due to the "explosive" effect these bullets have inside game. I think that in most instances (except in those instances involving a bullet failure), he's correct, due to the massive trauma caused by these bullets. The tremendous fragmentation can cause massive bleeding in all directions for quite a distance perpendicular to the bullet's path. This also transfers a lot of shock into the animal, which tends to anchor it long enough for the bleeding to cause death. More heavily constructed bonded or solid copper bullets, while doing an excellent job of staying together, penetrating, and avoiding fragmentation (as they're designed to do), by the nature of their construction, don't create as much havoc inside the animal, except right around the wound channel. This is also very deadly, just not quite as quickly or dramatically deadly as with bullets that "grenade" inside the animal. However, there will be a blood trail, and meat damage will be minimal with the "better" bullets. JMHO
You just stated in a much better way, the point I have been trying to make
The problem with the " grenade" bullets is they have to get inside to do the damage. If they blow up on the shoulder you have a wounded animal.
As for elk I don't hunt them. But if they are past 600 yards I'm going to pass anyway due to time of flight. But again we are not talking about elk on this thread.
Really.... "Blow Up on the shoulder"...... Of a whitetail..... Must be some REALLY BIG whitetails where you live LOL :)
Last edited by Londerko; 04-22-2014 at 12:04 PM.
I agree with everything you just stated. That's why I added "except in instances of bullet failure". It does happen. I've seen a buddy's 150 gr. .308 Ballistic Tip blow up on a neck shot on a small doe, knocking her down, and leaving the empty copper bullet cup on the ground, and her with a nasty neck wound. She got up and ran off, never to be found. For this reason and the ones I stated relating to meat damage, I'm not a huge fan of "grenading" bullets, nor neck shots for that matter. They either work spectacularly most of the time, or occasionally fail spectacularly. I'd rather have the more consistent performance of an Accubond, or a slightly more heavily built cup-and-core bullet like a Game King or Pro-Hunter.
Edit to add: I meant more heavily built than an SST or Ballistic Tip.
Last edited by barrel-nut; 04-22-2014 at 12:40 PM.
Members who have read this thread in the last 1 days: 0
Posting Permissions
Bookmarks