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Thread: 12fv build w/ pics

  1. #1
    Basic Member DesertDug's Avatar
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    12fv build w/ pics


    12fv 6.5 creedmoor start.
    Added XLR Envey chassis. Tactical Lite butt stock and Ergo hand grip- picked up on sale, v2
    Athlon Ares BTR 4.5x27x50 with sun shade, for a great price on sale.
    5 round metal accurate-mag
    as she sits now.
    [IMG][/IMG]

    i am looking to rebarrel and may due so soon as x-caliber has a 25% off sale going on right now. Intended use is for long range paper and hunting. Focus on hunting so weight is a concern but not the deciding factor. Looking on thoughts regarding lenght and profile. I am leaning towards 24" hunter profile, but might go longer say 27" in a light puma profile.

    This is my first accura trigger, so I will see how I like it. I do not mind the blade, as I like two stage triggers on my AR's. Time will tell if this gets changed out.

    Barrel nut and lug will get updates when and if I change out the stock barrel.

    This chassis is there #2 no version and will fit both a upper and lower bolt release models. Zoom in on the triger guard.
    Slots ate m-loc type. I will be adding a sling attachment and possibility a bipod, or arrca rail piece for atripod.
    See thread regarding this here:
    http://www.savageshooters.com/showth...athGrip-Tripod

    i look forward to the day I am getting results like @CFJunky does with his stock 12 fav.
    Last edited by DesertDug; 05-13-2019 at 09:58 AM. Reason: spelling

  2. #2
    Basic Member Robinhood's Avatar
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    Nice DD. Where in Texas again?
    The Dunning-Kruger effect is alive and well.

  3. #3
    Basic Member DesertDug's Avatar
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    Starting to lean 26" hunter profile. Looks like it will be lighter then the light Palma profile.

    Anyone have thought on if break would be a benefit ? Will not be run suppressed, so not sure if I should get it threaded or not. If not I will do a recessed crown.

    Savage Pre-FitBarrel Steel: 416R Stainless Steel
    Savage Barrel Length: 26" (No Half inch Threads)
    Caliber & Twist Rate: (6.5mm) .256/.264 1:8 Twist 5R Groove
    Bolt Action Contour: 13 - Hunter 1.058 4 .750 Small/Reg
    Savage Shank Size: Small / Standard
    Rifle Chambers: 6.5 Creedmoor
    Muzzle Options: Recessed Target Crown (No Threads)
    Finish: Polish

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    Of course a brake would help, but that thing should be heavy enough to absorb most of the recoil of a 6.5. If you were wanting to compete then thread it...

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    Nice looking set up, DesertDug.
    I was looking at that same stock just the other day.

    How did you deal with the hidden mag to detachable mag conversion?
    Did the Envy chassis come with the hardware or did you have to make another arrangement?

    I know you seem to prefer custom barrels, and a 416R stainless steel barrel, even at 26 inches will reduce the exit time over a 3% steel Savage barrel.
    I love my 416R barrels. They are a joy to clean and seem to be impervious to copper build-up.

    The Savage 12 FV factory barrel is a heavy profile.
    A hunter profile will be thinner which I expect will increase the effect of barrel heating.

    This spring, as the weather is warming up in Northern VA, I found that the 12 FV barrel will heat up from 86 degrees F. to over 120 degrees F. (where the POI drop is about 1/4 inch) after about 6 - 7 shots when the temperature is around 70 degrees. It's only going to get worse when summer arrives and I suspect it is already hot in the desert.
    (The temperatures are based upon an uncalibrated LCD Temperature stick-on strip on the barrel about 4 inches from the chamber. The readings are consistent but probably not particularly accurate as to true core barrel temperatures.)

    If you are considering this barrel for competition, the heating effect might be even worse with a hunter profile.
    For hunting, I doubt you will even notice. The first shot from a cold barrel is all that counts.
    I have rarely got a chance for 2 shots at any game I've hunted and even my thin hunting barrels won't show any temperature effect with only two shots.

    However, if you intend to punch paper or you intend to do extended load development for your rifle, you probably will wind up standing around waiting for the barrel to cool after a few shots with a hunting contour.

  6. #6
    Basic Member DesertDug's Avatar
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    Not wanting to compete celltec, it staying on target is a plus.
    CFJ, the swap is take action out of Stock and action bolt right to the chassis with action screws. 65 in/#. New action screws come with it. Takes AICS magazines
    Not sure if I should be concerned about barrel heating up to much. I think weight is more of concern.
    it is right at 13# as it sits now with savage barrel. my long action weights in at 9.5#

    yet I would like to use it to sharpen fundamentals. I guess you can't have both.

    Maybe 24" or 25" in a light palma. There is that artical regarding 6.5 and barrel length, as they chopped a barrel. In it the 25" had a large sd in its velocities. 24"did not lose much velocity over 26".

    Savage Pre-FitBarrel Steel: 416R Stainless Steel
    Savage Barrel Length: 24"
    Caliber & Twist Rate: (6.5mm) .256/.264 1:8 Twist 5R Groove
    Bolt Action Contour: 18 - Light Palma 1.058 2.5 .900 2.5 .750 Small/Reg
    Savage Shank Size: Small / Standard
    Rifle Chambers: 6.5 Creedmoor
    Muzzle Options: 5/8"x24 Threads (.243, .375), 11° Crown [+$55.00]
    Finish: Polish

    not sure how long this sale is so trying to learn as much as I can as fast as I can....

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    Very nice Dug. I run a 260, and with the weight, I find the idea of a brake to be comical. The recoil is soft as can be! They just add NOISE! Your comment on the Accutrigger is exactly what I have been saying. I have a repeatable system of performing a trigger job on Accutriggers. Feels very much like a GOOD 2-Stage.

  8. #8
    Basic Member DesertDug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Hoback View Post
    Very nice Dug. I run a 260, and with the weight, I find the idea of a break comical. The recoil is soft as can be! They just add NOISE! Your comment on the Accutrigger is exactly what I have been saying. I have a repeatable system of performing a trigger job on Accutriggers. Feels very much like a GOOD 2-Stage.
    What do you think regarding length David? Thanks for the break comment, I tend to lean towards you, plus I like it not being so load when I do t have my ears on in hunting situation.

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    I have two .308 Savages with 24-inch barrels, one with a muzzle brake and the other without a brake.
    I don't seen any improvement in accuracy with the muzzle brake, in fact, the rifle without the brake is slightly more accurate,
    I agree with Dave Hoback, there is no need for a muzzle brake on a rifle that weighs over 8 lbs.

    From my perspective, all the muzzle brake does is extend the reflection time so it makes tuning my loads for the rifle with the muzzle brake more difficult, especially because it is not the same type of steel which only complicates the reflection time calculation.

    As for barrel length, anything from 24 to 26 inches for a 6.5mm is around that caliber's sweet spot.
    I have two 26-inch barrels and one 24-inch barrel and they all shot very accurately.
    The 24-inch barrel Savage 10T-SR shot just about as accurately as the 26-inch Savage 12 FV you mentioned in your opening post.

    The extra weight of the 2 inches of barrel is just what you'll have to carry around while hunting.
    Choose the barrel length based upon the primary use.
    I like the 26-inch length because it puts the exit time reflection at a mv that is faster and right in the middle of the load tables for the powders that shoot most accurately.
    A deer won't notice the difference of the 100 fps or less so you'll lose with a 24-inch barrel.
    A 416R SS barrel is probably going to shoot faster than a 3 % carbon steel factory Savage barrel anyway.
    That will reduce the velocity difference a bit more.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DesertDug View Post
    What do you think regarding length David? Thanks for the break comment, I tend to lean towards you, plus I like it not being so load when I do t have my ears on in hunting situation.
    Seriously! The first AR15 pistol I built way back in ‘06, I made the mistake of using a brake on. 12” barrel, and Phantom brake. It was one of the loudest guns I have ever heard! And for such a small thing. That made me HATE them forever!

    What length are you asking about Dug? Barrel? If so, I’d do 26” or 27”. 26” is about perfect, but 27 is a good night number!LOL. Seriously, after 27, you don’t really see much gain. While gains from 24” to 26” are 30-50fps on average, even a 27 might see 5-10fps. Or none at all! I do believe 27 offers the the best harmonics though. I’m currently using a 26, but will use a 27 next swap.

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    Basic Member DesertDug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CFJunkie View Post
    Choose the barrel length based up the primary use.
    I like the 26-inch length because it puts the exit time reflection at a mv that is faster and right in the middle of the load tables for the powders that shoot most accurately.
    A deer won't notice the difference of the 100 fps or less so you'll lose with a 24-inch barrel.
    A 416R SS barrel is probably going to shoot faster than a 3 % carbon steel factory Savage barrel anyway.
    That will reduce the velocity difference a bit more.

    Whats your our thoughts on 27". How do the refractions layout?

    will the deer know the diffenance at 1000 yards? This is my concern if I get to that point and skill.

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    Basic Member DesertDug's Avatar
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    What's everyone's thoughts on Flutting. Is it just for show, or can on a 27" be a weight reduction of a lbs or so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DesertDug View Post
    What's everyone's thoughts on Flutting. Is it just for show, or can on a 27" be a weight reduction of a lbs or so.
    Fluting is for the purpose of weight reduction while maintaining rigidity. Most people, not knowing this however, will simply like it for looks! I have never been a fan. But to your question, yes, they can take off some significant weight.


    Also, concerning the post made before....muzzle brakes have NEVER been thought of as a means to INCREASE accuracy! And some sacrifice in accuracy will most assuredly be the result. Brakes are for recoil let off.

  14. #14
    Team Savage wbm's Avatar
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    all the muzzle brake does is extend the reflection time
    What is "reflection time"?

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    I'll try to make this brief because some of you know that I can go on for pages about this subject.

    When the cartridge ignites, the pressure surge tries to expand the chamber and that shock proceeds down the barrel to the muzzle at the reflection speed of the barrel steel.
    The type of steel determines the speed of the reflection from turn of the century barrel steel at 18,916 fps to 416R stainless at 20,014 fps. The speed for 3% carbon steel in a Savage barrel is 19,107, while 4140 or 4150 stainless steel is 19,969 fps. The reflection proceeds in the steel not the bore, so the length of the barrel and whatever is attached to it determines the time of one reflection, regardless of the caliber.

    When the reflection get to the muzzle it reflects and returns to the chamber where it reflects and goes back to the muzzle. When the reflection is at the muzzle, the muzzle crown bulges. The theory is that you want the muzzle as tight as possible. It normally takes a reflection a bit over 0.1 msec. or 100 microseconds to get down a 24-inch barrel. I normally takes a bullet about 1.2 msec. to exit a 24 inch barrel so the shock wave normally takes about 12 passes up and down the barrel to be at the chamber when the bullet exits.

    Picking the right charge to get the bullet to exit when the shock wave is right at the chamber is what I try to do because I have found it is worth about 0.1 inches in average group size compared to having the bullet exit when the shock wave is at the muzzle.
    It give me a means of calculating what powder charge provides the effect of a 'node' without having to shoot a ladder of powder charges and try to minimize shooter induced variations that just confuse the issue unless you shoot enough groups to get a statistically significant result for each charge.
    It seems to work for me.

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    I'll try to make this brief because some of you know that I can go on for pages about this subject.

    Ah.

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    In other words, you work up a load like the rest of us?? Because delving into the world of tracking the resonant frequency of a barrel reflecting the initial millimeter wave energy, would require some incredibly expensive equipment I’m sure. I’m certainly no expert but I’m fairly certain it’s not something you can zero in “on the fly”, so to speak. LOL.

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    Actually, Dave, it is not all that difficult.

    QuickLOAD calculates exit time of the bullet chosen based upon the powder, charge, trim length and seating depth.
    It might not be perfectly accurate, particularly since powder lots vary but I find that if I use the QuickLOAD exit time in planning loads, I get results that are better at the calculated reflection time based upon the barrel length and steel in the barrel.
    At worst, given my barrel length, trim length and seating depth potential measurement errors, powder lot variations, and variations in steel in barrel lots, and temperature effects on powder, and whatever faults there may be in QuickLOAD's simulation software, my best accuracy results come out within +/- 0.005 msec. of the calculated reflection time for all of the 7 rifles that I have used this technique for. For all but one of those rifles, my best accuracy is within 0.002 msec. That is within 4% of the calculated reflection time for the worst case and within 2%, for most of my barrels.
    Since I don't shoot from a fixture, my shooter and reloading induced variations account for at least that much error.

    The big advantage I see is using the predicted reflection time when I start loading for a new rifle. I find it gives me a great starting point with good results from the outset.
    In the case of my two latest rifles, the initial results were very close to the average accuracy with my most accurate rifle.

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    Basic Member DesertDug's Avatar
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    You all need to give CFJ a listen. This method is called OCW, and he can explain it the best I have heard. It is pure applied science and understanding of materials. I am a believer and student of this teaching.

    Dave you eluded to it with out knowing when you talk about barrel harmonics. The accuracy nodes show up when the refraction timing is near the chamber and the bore is least effected.

    Now back to my OP. Convince me what lenght barrel to order. I am at 26" light Palma at the moment, with no threading. :)

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    Because delving into the world of tracking the resonant frequency of a barrel reflecting the initial millimeter wave energy, would require some incredibly expensive equipment I’m sure.
    It is that. Years ago following the "Houston Warehouse Experiment" a research project was undertaken to study wave harmonics in rifle barrels. It was the "applied physics" approach so to speak of finding out why some barrels "Hum" good and some not so good. Precision Shooting Magazine published the data. The young man, may have been Chris Long, who did the research had a lab full of some very sophisticated and expensive instruments.....bottom line? It's like Zen....it's all about vibrations. OCW is a rather less complicated and expensive method of finding where a barrel might "hum" best.

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    Basic Member scootergisme's Avatar
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    Please post the mathematical equation. Please and thank you!

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    There is a reason I eluded to it Dug. Being a custom Knifemaker for a number of years(and one of the ONLY one armed knife makers in the known world), you learn a thing or three about carbon/stainless & allow steels, among other metals. Inevitably, such information is learned to an extent.

    I think your barrel choice will work wonderfully Dug. Again, I am planning to go with 27 on next swap(and all others in the future), as I believe it delivers the best/highest velocity to harmonics ratio. But that is not to say that choosing a 26” is wrong. It’s what I am using now...26” Varmint contour. And I am very happy with it thus far.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scootergisme View Post
    Please post the mathematical equation. Please and thank you!
    Here ya go. http://www.ocwreloading.com/. Can also read some of Chris Long's research on Optimal Barrel Time.

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    Basic Member DesertDug's Avatar
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    I will give my limited take on it.

    Explosion on shock wave travels in the material explosion takes place. In a material like steel, the shockwave travels at the same speed. Independent of overall lenght or thickness. Knowing this speed and with a program like quick load you can time out bullet exit with the closest even number refraction of the explosion wave.

    For barrel steel, like the barrel existing on this build, the refraction time is 18,916 fps or 0.1104 msec.

    with known lenght of barrel one can calculate exit time prediction with known refraction speed, in a load worked up in quick load program.

    Disclamer, I do not have quick loads but have been trying to get an understanding of the theory.

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    Here is a link to Chris Long's original article - copyright 2004
    http://www.the-long-family.com/shock%20wave%20theory%20summary%20explanation.pdf

    I discovered it in 2015 and wasn't convinced by the data - partially because I didn't think it was statistically significant.
    I tested it for about 2 years and discovered that even if it had merit, I was unable to prove it because my shooting technique was not consistent enough and because I had not accounted for the effect of temperature on temperature sensitive powders.
    After a lot of effort improving the consistency of my shooting technique and reloading technique, I finally was able to see the benefits.
    I now have well over 1,000 groups measured and recorded and am convinced that Chris was right.

    Note, in the article Chris was also using QuickLOAD.

    Now back to DesertDug's concern.

    In my opinion, anything over 24 inches will work and we know that 26 inches also works.
    There is no reason why 27 inches won't also work beautifully.
    A 27-inch barrel would be perfect for bench shooting, but I'm not sure you will want the extra barrel weight when hunting.
    That decision is purely up to you and your understanding of the use you intend.

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