Factory loaded .308 match ammo for long range

[yobuck]

Well if i may be so bold, explain spin drift.
Did you learn about spin drift by say reading one of Brian Litz books?
Frankly untill about 10 years ago or so i had never heard that term even used.
But then ive never read any books on this subject.
But today it seems to be used everywhere i read about it.
My question would be what does it matter anyway why a shot lands in a particular place?
The bigger question to me is what are you going to do about it?
If it matters, then it only matters if it isnt corrected.
If your simply shooting for group, then it matters not where the group is on the target anyway, even way out in the white part.
Nothing here matters other than how well you shoot, and that includes knowing about things like spin drift.
Leave all that stuff to the armchair wind reading experts.
By the way, did your class include any pointers on that topic?

[jkv45]

Well if i may be so bold, explain spin drift.
Did you learn about spin drift by say reading one of Brian Litz books?
Frankly untill about 10 years ago or so i had never heard that term even used.
But then ive never read any books on this subject.
But today it seems to be used everywhere i read about it.
My question would be what does it matter anyway why a shot lands in a particular place?
The bigger question to me is what are you going to do about it?
If it matters, then it only matters if it isnt corrected.
If your simply shooting for group, then it matters not where the group is on the target anyway, even way out in the white part.
Nothing here matters other than how well you shoot, and that includes knowing about things like spin drift.
Leave all that stuff to the armchair wind reading experts.
By the way, did your class include any pointers on that topic?

Hmmm...

I'm not sure what you are getting at. Are you being sarcastic?

Are you asking if spin drift exists and if I'm drinking the Kool-Aid?

In an effort to understand what's going on, I'm comparing the results from 600 yards (which were a centered group) to 1000 yards (which were not centered). The conclusion I came to was that spin drift changed the point of impact up and to the right. Maybe I'm wrong. I'm just looking for answers here.

Because this was the first time at that distance, I didn't go making adjustments every time a shot didn't land in the center. I was more interested in trying to produce a decent group than a decent score. It was a class, and not a match.

Understanding what happened, and why, are the basics of learning. There is a lot to learn in long range shooting, and this was just a start.

We did not discuss spin drift in the classroom portion of the class, and because I hadn't shot at extended distances before it had never been a factor to consider.

[yobuck]

Hmmm...

I'm not sure what you are getting at. Are you being sarcastic?

Are you asking if spin drift exists and if I'm drinking the Kool-Aid?

In an effort to understand what's going on, I'm comparing the results from 600 yards (which were a centered group) to 1000 yards (which were not centered). The conclusion I came to was that spin drift changed the point of impact up and to the right. Maybe I'm wrong. I'm just looking for answers here.

Because this was the first time at that distance, I didn't go making adjustments every time a shot didn't land in the center. I was more interested in trying to produce a decent group than a decent score. It was a class, and not a match.

Understanding what happened, and why, are the basics of learning. There is a lot to learn in long range shooting, and this was just a start.

We did not discuss spin drift in the classroom portion of the class, and because I hadn't shot at extended distances before it had never been a factor to consider.

No, im not being sarcastic, and im also not implying you drink Cool Aid.
You seem to think that (spin drift) caused your shots to land where they did on your target.
I stated that untill very recently i had never heard that term used, and asked that you explain it since you seem to know more about it than i do.
Possibly someone else here can answer that question then, because i would really like an answer to the question.
And an accurate answer as well, because i already have my own opinion on spin drift, and lots of other things talked about today as well.
There is another term you might hear used also, but not nearly as often.
And that would be the (coralis) affect on a bullet, assuming i spelled that correctly?
Anyway it would depend upon which side of the equator you live on as to how you would go about allowing for it.
And the easiest way to know is to watch which way the water swirls when you flush your toilet.
Very important to know when you decide to shoot your Winny at say 3500 yards.
Did somebody here just ask about where these sites are going?
Well this is where folks.

[jkv45]

No, im not being sarcastic, and im also not implying you drink Cool Aid.
You seem to think that (spin drift) caused your shots to land where they did on your target.
I stated that untill very recently i had never heard that term used, and asked that you explain it since you seem to know more about it than i do.
Possibly someone else here can answer that question then, because i would really like an answer to the question.
And an accurate answer as well, because i already have my own opinion on spin drift, and lots of other things talked about today as well.
There is another term you might hear used also, but not nearly as often.
And that would be the (coralis) affect on a bullet, assuming i spelled that correctly?
Anyway it would depend upon which side of the equator you live on as to how you would go about allowing for it.
And the easiest way to know is to watch which way the water swirls when you flush your toilet.
Very important to know when you decide to shoot your Winny at say 3500 yards.
Did somebody here just ask about where these sites are going?
Well this is where folks.

Yes I do.

You mentioned Bryan Litz. If you respect his ballistic research, this is what he has to say about spin drift -

"Gyroscopic (spin) Drift

Having a left or right twist will change the direction of gyroscopic drift. Bullets fired from right twist barrels drift to the right, and vise versa by the same amount, typically 8-9 inches at1000 yards for small arms trajectories"

Quoted from this page, which also includes information on what he refers to as "Coriolis Acceleration" - https://appliedballisticsllc.com/wp-...lis-Effect.pdf

Based on his information, and information I've gathered elsewhere, I do believe my shift was from spin drift. It makes sense to me.

Again - I don't understand what you mean by "Did somebody here just ask about where these sites are going? Well this is where folks."

I'm trying to learn, and be respectful here, but your comments sure make me wonder what your intent is.

[yobuck]

Yes I do.

You mentioned Bryan Litz. If you respect his ballistic research, this is what he has to say about spin drift -

"Gyroscopic (spin) Drift

Having a left or right twist will change the direction of gyroscopic drift. Bullets fired from right twist barrels drift to the right, and vise versa by the same amount, typically 8-9 inches at1000 yards for small arms trajectories"

Quoted from this page, which also includes information on what he refers to as "Coriolis Acceleration" - https://appliedballisticsllc.com/wp-...lis-Effect.pdf

Based on his information, and information I've gathered elsewhere, I do believe my shift was from spin drift. It makes sense to me.

Again - I don't understand what you mean by "Did somebody here just ask about where these sites are going? Well this is where folks."

I'm trying to learn, and be respectful here, but your comments sure make me wonder what your intent is.

Well my intent is to lend what experience i have doing this stuff for 50 years in the hope it might shorten the learning curve for others like you.
Brian Litz has a technical mind, and i have a practical mind. If technical is where you are, then by all means follow along with whatever Brian says.
50 years ago Brian was clueless as to any of this even going on.
But where im from, people were shooting guns like 6.5x300 Wetherbys, 30x378 Wetherbys and 7x300 Wetherbys.
Which was long before even Wetherby decided those cartridges were worth pursuing.
Brians employer, Berger, wasent even on the radar screen as for good long range hunting bullets at that time.
And that isnt meant in any way as to discredit Berger, just pointing out a few facts somehow lost today, thanks to people like Brian.
A few years back on another site, Brian was discussing first round hits at extended distances, which most would agree to be beyond 1500 yards.
Of coarse his awe struck viewers were asking the normal polite type questions.
Finally, i asked him what the odds were of making a first round hit at say 2000 yards using his criteria for doing it.
And his answer was, i quote, ( first round hits at 2000 yards can be expected).
Well guess what, so can snow in Jacksonville be expected, but be carefull where you put your thumb while your waiting for it.
So that sums up my opinion of experts like Brian when it comes right down to actually getting it done.
But hey, your not me, and you probably at this point dont even like me.
But you know what? if you keep doing this stuff, at some point you will be thinking a bit differently about it all.
My advise is very simple, you want to do this?
Just go shoot, and the more the better.
Because the experts in the end are really only about selling their books.

[Dave Hoback]

Actually, the whole water swirl direction in the toilet based on hemisphere & location is bunk! There are too many outside factors for it to be reliable. Must be done on a completely still standing body of water, with a drain outside the water as not to cause a differing factor. That’s how little effect the Coriolis effect has on toilets. And I believe the Coriolis has even LESS effect on a bullet!

[charlie b]

So, next time make the adjustment ahead of time and see if it works for you.

Most of the time when shooting at range I have enough trouble getting the wind adjustment right :)

[jkv45]

I'm just looking for answers, anywhere I can find them - that's all.

I'm a practical person, and know there are people that can answer technical questions I can't.

I don't want to go back to the range and have the same problems I did last time. I strive to do a little better each time out.

[yobuck]

Actually, the whole water swirl direction in the toilet based on hemisphere & location is bunk! There are too many outside factors for it to be reliable. Must be done on a completely still standing body of water, with a drain outside the water as not to cause a differing factor. That’s how little effect the Coriolis effect has on toilets. And I believe the Coriolis has even LESS effect on a bullet!

Well im sure glad you chimed in on that Dave, i have been really concerned over it since i first heard about it.lol
Fact is that if you go to places where there are shooters, who know something about shooting, you never hear a word mentioned about any of that crap.
As for the rifle twist affecting where the bullet lands, i suppose someone like Brian would need to tell us what it might be based on the actual twist rate of the barrel? I mean could a 12 be the same as say a 7?
And how come on some days we need absolutely zero correction at extreme distances of say 1500 yds, and on other days we might need several feet with the same gun?
And by the way, we can shoot a mile from our yards easily, and we do after the leaves come down, but not with 308s or Winnys either.
You will know nothing solid as for information till you actually send one over there, in other words an old fashioned sighter shot.

[hamiltonkiler]

So, next time make the adjustment ahead of time and see if it works for you.

Most of the time when shooting at range I have enough trouble getting the wind adjustment right :)

Reach out to a scout sniper. A good one.
They see a pile of bullets go down range.
Like I have mentioned before. 1000yds is no cake walk.
I have dope on my gun to 750yds.
Past that I’m not good enough to be predictable and not really that good at 600yds.
I’m shooting a small caliber.
Always take notes of what happened. Apply it to the next range session. If it happens the same and write that down. Gathering Data on Personal equipment is very very important for your gun and you.
My SEAL buddy talks spin drift. You can see it in a shooting scope. He talks specifically in the desert. He explains why the military has an effective range on cartridge. Not necessarily a lethal range but how far is the round predictable or gun.
Here is an example. 300wm gas gun with 20” barrel he claims is predictable to around 750yds his bolt gun with a 28” barrel is close to 1300yds.
Spin drift or not and maybe going from sonic to transonic plays a role he says.
He defiantly claims spin drift is real and moves the bullet to the right and up in his case like yours. But he has notes and it’s programmed into a high end kestrel device.
He likes to say. It’s not the first shot that kills you. “But if I can see where the first on lands or my spotter, bet your ass dead on the second one”. I like this statement. Even the best In the world need a sighter.

Cheers




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[hamiltonkiler]

PS
Not to much dialing anymore. They are shooting off dots in a Christmas tree reticle.


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[charlie b]

I just don't try to over think the problem, something that I tend to do as an engineer.

For shooting I make up a dope card, which is modified if I run into new conditions. I note wind and corrections each time I shoot and add the information to the card. That way I am close on the first shot. But, it is rarely exact. Second shot will usually be where I want it (if I or spotter saw the impact point).

Ballistic computers can be used to shorten the learning curve on dope card development. A good thing for you is using factory ammo. You only have one load to mess with. Basically you can make up a dope card ahead of time and then just make adjustments as you go. All you really need to add in is temperature compensation of muzzle velocity.

Eventually you get to where the only unknown you have is the wind. And it is the biggest one since it changes from shot to shot, especially at long ranges.

Field shooting the added problem is accurate range determination.

[jkv45]

Thanks guys. I do appreciate the info and tips.

I did make detailed notes of the conditions and results from the day.

I honestly don't expect to be shooting 1000 yards regularly, but I thought the class would be a good chance to give it a try. The club where the class was held is a bit too expensive for me to join right now, but they are not taking new members right now anyway.

My equipment was adequate for the class, but not a 1000 yard set-up for sure. I do feel that the rifle and factory Lapua ammo did very well considering, better than I expected. 1000 yards is asking a lot from a .308. I'm the weakest link in the accuracy chain - but I knew that would be the case.

Had fun. Learned a lot. Left with some questions. Got some answers.

[yobuck]

I just don't try to over think the problem, something that I tend to do as an engineer.

For shooting I make up a dope card, which is modified if I run into new conditions. I note wind and corrections each time I shoot and add the information to the card. That way I am close on the first shot. But, it is rarely exact. Second shot will usually be where I want it (if I or spotter saw the impact point).

Ballistic computers can be used to shorten the learning curve on dope card development. A good thing for you is using factory ammo. You only have one load to mess with. Basically you can make up a dope card ahead of time and then just make adjustments as you go. All you really need to add in is temperature compensation of muzzle velocity.

Eventually you get to where the only unknown you have is the wind. And it is the biggest one since it changes from shot to shot, especially at long ranges.

Field shooting the added problem is accurate range determination.

The very first sentence here says all that needs to be said on the subject Charlie.
You were dead on with what you said.
Fact is there are people out there who for whatever reason need to make things appear more difficult than what they actually are.
Conditions will always control the outcome regardless of the shooters ability.
And to prove that all one needs to do is look at the records of the 1000 yd benchrest matches.
In 1986 a new record for 10 shots in the heavy gun class was set by a man i knew well.
It was as i recall roughly 3 3/4”, todays record is now about 10 years old and is roughly 1” smaller than the one shot about 35 years ago.
So during that period of time the best shooters have managed to move the ball 1” after firing thousands of rounds from very good rifles.
Yet on another site recently the current record holder said that if you cant shoot 4” today theres no use even showing up anymore.
Thats simply BS, and i left him know it and he never answered.
No doubt there are far more people and guns capable of that today, but actually doing it is yet another subject.
By the way, without looking it up does anybody even know the name of the current record holder?
As for reticle choices, there are other options that will work without the need to dial the scope.
BUT, and its a big BUT, the shooter must see the hit of the last shot in order for them to work.
Its no different than just using a holdover for a follow up shot.
As a rule a chart made up by entering all the required data on the gun on any of the numerous sites available today will give good basic information.
A few years ago Kestrals were simply a gadget new shooters bought thinking it would solve all the wind reading issues.
But they had to regroup in order to stay in business, so today they can even tell you what your bank balance is.
AND, if you can convince that big buck over there to not move till you get all the data you need dialed into your scope, they might actually work well.
But of coarse if he dosent, or for some reason he runs off a ways, then he needs to stay put again till you reenter all the new data.
Or you could simply use the chart you made up 5 years ago for a different gun when you lived in a different state and just send a sighter shot over there.
And you know what? you will be much closer than you might think.
And you know what else? That deer most likely wont even move, and if the hit is real close, he might even sniff where the bullet hit.
And you know what else? theres no excuse for missing him with the second shot. lol
As for scope type, it matters not one bit which one you pick or prefer. What matters is that you know how to use it without thinking about it.
We as a rule use the one shot zero method for follow up shots where the miss was more than we feel comfortable just holding over.
If your not familiar with that method, get familiar with it and practice using it.
Thats the type thing that will put meat on the pole more so than razzel dazzel group shooting.

[jkv45]

The very first sentence here says all that needs to be said on the subject Charlie.
You were dead on with what you said.
Fact is there are people out there who for whatever reason need to make things appear more difficult than what they actually are.
(SNIP)
As a rule a chart made up by entering all the required data on the gun on any of the numerous sites available today will give good basic information.
A few years ago Kestrals were simply a gadget new shooters bought thinking it would solve all the wind reading issues.
But they had to regroup in order to stay in business, so today they can even tell you what your bank balance is.
AND, if you can convince that big buck over there to not move till you get all the data you need dialed into your scope, they might actually work well.
But of coarse if he dosent, or for some reason he runs off a ways, then he needs to stay put again till you reenter all the new data.
Or you could simply use the chart you made up 5 years ago for a different gun when you lived in a different state and just send a sighter shot over there.
And you know what? you will be much closer than you might think.
And you know what else? That deer most likely wont even move, and if the hit is real close, he might even sniff where the bullet hit.
And you know what else? theres no excuse for missing him with the second shot. lol
As for scope type, it matters not one bit which one you pick or prefer. What matters is that you know how to use it without thinking about it.
We as a rule use the one shot zero method for follow up shots where the miss was more than we feel comfortable just holding over.
If your not familiar with that method, get familiar with it and practice using it.
Thats the type thing that will put meat on the pole more so than razzel dazzel group shooting.

Again, I can't tell - is this directed to me?

Just like your other comment I quoted - "Did somebody here just ask about where these sites are going? Well this is where folks." - it always feels like there's more than just information included in your replies.

I did some basic testing of long range loads and made-up a card with my ballistic data - is that over-thinking it?

You've got some good insight from experience, but there's always a little something else...

[yobuck]

Again, I can't tell - is this directed to me?

Just like your other comment I quoted - "Did somebody here just ask about where these sites are going? Well this is where folks." - it always feels like there's more than just information included in your replies.

I did some basic testing of long range loads and made-up a card with my ballistic data - is that over-thinking it?

You've got some good insight from experience, but there's always a little something else...

I guess its directed at anybody who might be interested, and those that arent should just ignore it.
As for overthinking the data, you wont actually know that till you test the data.
And your right, there is always something else, you cant get there without shooting.
Dont forget to check your scope level friend and have a nice day.

[charlie b]

jkv45,

Am glad you had fun. And don't underestimate your rig and ammo. The .308 is still used as a sniper rifle out to 1000yd and a bit more. It might not give you sub MOA at range, but, it will be close. Several of us in this area still use .308's at the 1000yd range.

From what I understand (someone can correct me if the rules have changed) the Palma competition still requires .308 or .223 and open sights for shooting up to 1000m. In the US bullets can be any weight. International rules require a bullet less than 156gn. If you want to feel humbled go to a Palma match. They use those same targets (44" black) with open sights, prone, unsupported. :)

PS my personal goal with the .308 is to manage first round hits on a milk jug at 1000yd. My best so far is with 5 rounds (with the 155gn Bergers). I still kinda jump with joy when I see the jug split. :)

[South Prairie jim]

My hand loads out shined the M118LR at every distance I shot them, check your factory loads with a chronograph and you will quickly see the ES is not very good, if you really want to shoot decent groups at 1000 yards with a 308 the FTR guys will tell you how to do it.
none I know of use factory ammo.

The difference from 600 yards to 1000 yards is 40% further yet 60% increase in ballistics - blah blah blah.. anyway spin drift is a real and it helps to understand that a right hand twist and a full value left wind pushes the bullet to 5:00 where in contrast a 3:00 FV will push the round towards 10:00 impact.
the reason why is spin drift..

[pdshooter2]

My hand loads out shined the M118LR at every distance I shot them, check your factory loads with a chronograph and you will quickly see the ES is not very good,

wow hand loads out shot mil sniper ammo...why would anyone be surprised ??
was your hand loads smk175 at 2.83 ??
was the m118lr the CURRENT load or the ORIGINAL LOAD ?
( IT WAS WATERED DOWN TWICE TO ACCOMODATE RIFLES IT WAS NOT DESIGNED FOR)
the original bolt gun load was pretty impressive stuff)

[South Prairie jim]

All I can tell you is my loads were tuned to my rifle whereas the m118lr did not perform as well.
That really should not be a surprise at all, if the M118lr load is that great why don’t the FTR guys use them?

[pdshooter2]

you clearly have no clue
you did not answer the questions that were asked.
why would any competitor use bulk mil ammo in competition today?
( for the record, in the past all palma teams shot the SAME ammo in the match)
again you have no clue.
good bye

All I can tell you is my loads were tuned to my rifle whereas the m118lr did not perform as well.
That really should not be a surprise at all, if the M118lr load is that great why don’t the FTR guys use them?

[South Prairie jim]

you clearly have no clue
you did not answer the questions that were asked.
why would any competitor use bulk mil ammo in competition today?
( for the record, in the past all palma teams shot the SAME ammo in the match)
again you have no clue.
good bye

Mike’
why are being rude? your not like this in person..btw You didn’t answer my question either.

[South Prairie jim]

I don’t know a thing about the Palma team or any of that BS nor am I a government sniper so I don’t comment on things I do not have personal experience with and don’t recall that being the thread topic beyond a factory load request but here is what I will say, the m118 loads I tested were 175 gr . I did not measure the oal nor did I give a rats behind at the time, I also tested some federal gold metal match ammo with ok but not great results my loads were 168 gr sierra bthp at .015 off the lands with 43.5 gr of Varget that shot smaller out to 600 yards.
I moved on from 308s for Benchrest shooting a few years ago. (I’ve put you on my ignore list )

[jkv45]

My hand loads out shined the M118LR at every distance I shot them, check your factory loads with a chronograph and you will quickly see the ES is not very good, if you really want to shoot decent groups at 1000 yards with a 308 the FTR guys will tell you how to do it.
none I know of use factory ammo.

The difference from 600 yards to 1000 yards is 40% further yet 60% increase in ballistics - blah blah blah.. anyway spin drift is a real and it helps to understand that a right hand twist and a full value left wind pushes the bullet to 5:00 where in contrast a 3:00 FV will push the round towards 10:00 impact.
the reason why is spin drift..

I wasn't able to get any M118LR, but the general consensus is that it's no longer very good. M118LR has changed multiple times over the years, and some batches were not very good at all.

The Lapua 175gr Scenar-L factory loads I tested did very well at 100, 600, and 1000 yards - considering my set-up and skill level. The factory Lapua rounds do seem to be very high quality. I realize custom hand-loads could do better, especially at 1000 yards, but I don't have a real 1000 yard set-up - just a basic 24" heavy barrel, a slightly better stock, and a fixed 12x scope.

I enjoyed the long range class, and shooting out to 1000 yards, but I realize it would take the proper equipment and more knowledge/training/testing to really make it worthwhile.

600 yards is a big enough challenge right now.

[Dave Hoback]

Mike’
why are being rude? your not like this in person..btw You didn’t answer my question either.

Hey Jim, This one has had a bit of an “attitude” problem since joining here. He also joined at least 1 or 2 other gun forums within the last several months, with the same winning personality. He hadn’t been here 40 posts & received a little “Time Out” for a week. He’s toned it down some, but clearly still has some anger issues you might say. Best not to answer his taunts.