Reply With QuoteNot even one comment? That is it, someone should just give up their .458 116SE and I will be the Guinea Pig to take it over to the dark continent to test on a Buff.
So this being a Savage forum, how many are faithful enough to use a Savage when a problem could end up getting you squished or eaten.
What I am thinking is something along the lines of the old Safari Express model or would you just spend the extra money and buy another brand's factory rifle and move on. At a moment when reaction time counts I would sure like all the functions (safety, etc) of my rifle to be in the same place as the one I have hunted with for 20+ years. Let's hear some real life experiences, and how much time and rounds spent with a rifle before you would trust it.
Not even one comment? That is it, someone should just give up their .458 116SE and I will be the Guinea Pig to take it over to the dark continent to test on a Buff.
Must have missed this post or I would have put in my 2 cents earlier.
Personally I think that there are a lot of variables to the question, so lets cut some of them out. Let's assume that you are using factory ammo (cutting out the variable of rifle performance with handloads, because handloads are only as good as the care taken by the person loading) and let's assume that the gun is properly cared for as far as cleaning and not overly abused and in good orignal mechanical shape.
Under those assumptions, I see no reason not to use a Savage when the cartridge there chambered is appropriate for the game hunted of course. I would say that if I were using a 458WM with a CRF Bolthead (for example) and it was performing nicely in the accuracy department, then I would think 200+ rounds of reliable feeding and extracting would be a good idicator for me to trust it.
I specify the CRF Head because we are taking Dangerous game. The push-feed bolt heads have given me great service, but some magazine-cartridge combo's have given me issues in the past when using a push-feed head. For hunting deer and other game that won't squash me, those few issues have been minor enough not to be concerned with. A good example is a Model 10 in 243win with a SF magazine that I used to own. Was an accurate gun, but if you tried to feed from the mag in a horizontal postition it would eject the spent round and push the fresh one sideways.making bipod and bench shooting a problem. If the muzzle was pointed upwards at roughly 20 to 45 degrees then it fed perfectly which was ok for off hand shooting as I tend to dismount when cycling the bolt in the off hand postition.
To your original question, I would feel much better having a guide or hunting partner standing next to me with a good double chambered in something like 458, 500NE, etc. if I were carrying any brand bolt gun when going after deadly game. My chances of going on such a hunt are very remote, but I have my 458 just in case.
204, 22 K-Hornet, 222, 223, 22-250, 22-250AI, 6BR, 243, 243AI, 6-06, 6-WSM, 250-3000AI, 270, 7-08, 7RM, 30BR, 308, 30-06, 375 H&H, 444 Marlin, 450BM, 458WM
How reliable it is doesn't make much of a difference if you miss what your shooting at. I think anything you buy could put you in a potentially life threatening situation and I also think that that is one of the big reason most people go looking for "dangerous" game. I am more of a 700gr hardcast from a .500 S&W kind of guy so I can't really answer your question.
There we go Boots, 200+ rounds finally a number from someone else's POV. I usually end up with 300 rounds of practice with a rifle before it goes on a "big" trip and feel pretty confident in that combo before leaving. The reason I ask is I am thinking I want something bigger that .375 for the next trip and can't decide whether to build something, have it built or buy it. And yes you are correct on having backup there with you but I don't want to be dependant on someone I don't have much of a history with.
Sam, I am too much of a recoil wimp for that hand cannon. I regularly shoot .358 win / 180gr in a MR Lone Eagle with a brake and that thing is at my upper limit for fun.
I got to agree there, Accuracy is just as important as reliability. If you can't hit what you are aiming at then does it matter if the gun fails?How reliable it is doesn't make much of a difference if you miss what your shooting at.
When hunting anything, shot placement is the key and you need an accuate gun and a accurate load to do that.
204, 22 K-Hornet, 222, 223, 22-250, 22-250AI, 6BR, 243, 243AI, 6-06, 6-WSM, 250-3000AI, 270, 7-08, 7RM, 30BR, 308, 30-06, 375 H&H, 444 Marlin, 450BM, 458WM
I have to disagree with this one, there is no accuracy to measure if the trigger pull doesn't result in a bang. I am as much a fan of a sub MOA hunting rifle as anyone but for a dangerous game rifle that most shots will be closer than 100yds I don't need a half-MOA gun nearly as much as it needs to go boom everytime. You see double rifles all the time that are lucky to shoot 5-MOA but have been a PH's faithful tool for decades.
Here is a story I just saw firsthand:
A guy in our hunting camp this year in Namibia shows up with $15,000 Blaser in 300WSM for a cull hunt. Very nice rifle and is praising the accuracy of his pride and joy all week. In one afternoon he has 4-misfires at two different animals (to which his PH is ready to throw it out of the truck). He is back at camp tearing that straight pull action apart (with all it's little parts) to detail clean and thinks he saw a small peice of dirt fall out of the bolt which mut have caused the problem. If a little dirt can stop that thing from going off, it is not the field gun I want to go trudging through the bush with. We left the next day and they still had 10-days to go so I don't know how much luck he had with it the rest of his trip. But as the PH said it was good they were only hunting Warthog for the pot and not Buffalo.
Well now I did say accurate, but to what degree is up for debate. I would not expect a Dangerous Game Rifle (DGR) to be a 1/2 MOA shooter, but if it was it would not hurt my feelings. Yes it must be reliable too, but if you can't hit the broadside of a barn (or buffalo) then I guess you can hope to scare it to death, maybe. :)
That why I said that one is as important as the other. Got to have both, no comprimises for me.
Sounds like the guy from your camp had more money than common sense. Accuracy is great but the reliablity must be there to. Gotta have both.
204, 22 K-Hornet, 222, 223, 22-250, 22-250AI, 6BR, 243, 243AI, 6-06, 6-WSM, 250-3000AI, 270, 7-08, 7RM, 30BR, 308, 30-06, 375 H&H, 444 Marlin, 450BM, 458WM
Accuracy of the rifle wasn't my concern. Accuracy of the screwball behind the trigger was. If your worried about MOA accuracy wile hunting Dangerous game then chances are it's far enough away to not be all the dangerous. You need to be comfortable with what ever weapon you decide to use. If your not then rifle accuracy and dependability don't mean anything. If you can't pull up a rifle, acquire your target and take a good shot, quickly, then what does it matter if it goes bang at all? You might as well run around the animal in a chicken suite wile throwing comic books at it and try to confuse it to death. Putting rounds down range to check your rifle for function is a great idea but if it truly is dangerous game then you might want to practice handling as well.
Never take a gun into the field for any dangerous game, until all the bugs have been worked out and this rifle has been tested on NON - Dangerous game first.
Now accuracy is very nice if your Loooooong Range shooting but for dangerous game, a 2 to 3 inch group at 50 yards is all that is needed in my humble opinion. I will bet you many double guns out their in use will not do that good accuracy wise.
One should practice (not shooting off the bench either) from a sitting and standing position! Also stress can be a big factor for the meeting up of dangerous game and hunter (especially the first time or two) I like to do some squats and jumping jacks before I shoot the target with my big gun. Yes, this gets the blood pumping and your heart racing etc.Then you try to hit that bulls-eye at 50 yards off handed, then use the sticks at 100 yards or off handed.
I always get my MIND SET confronting a dangerous game animal before I pick up the rifle and shoot! I first do about 10 squats and then 20 jumping jacks to elevate my heart and blood flow. This also happens when a hunter is confronted by a DGR animal! It helps a hunter to prepare before hand I believe and gives you a good idea of your true accuacy under a stressful situatioin. I start the show firing my .270 Win for 3 shots on target, then fire 3-shots with my .375-Wby, move up to the .458 Winchester for 3 shots. I then take a 10 minute brake and get myself a cool drink of water. Now coming back to fire again, I repeat those squats and jumping jacks. I then get my MIND SET for the next series of shots. I shoot my .458-Lott for 3 shoots, then fife a .470-Capstick 600 grn bullet for 3 shots. Game is over!!!
2" at 50yds off hand with a very large caliber is what I would consider to be accurate for this scenario. I guess since there is so much talk on this forum about sub-.5MOA groups with Savages from benches and Prairie Dog Towns that when I agreed a D.G.-Gun needed to be accurate in my above posts that 1/4MOA is what was meant.
My mistake, should have been clearer. Tracer said it well. I have seen some rifles that would have been tough to hit a 6" circle at 50yds offhand so yes, accuracy has varying degrees depending application, target, caliber, etc. and 2" at 50yds offhand would be fine with me, with perfect function.
204, 22 K-Hornet, 222, 223, 22-250, 22-250AI, 6BR, 243, 243AI, 6-06, 6-WSM, 250-3000AI, 270, 7-08, 7RM, 30BR, 308, 30-06, 375 H&H, 444 Marlin, 450BM, 458WM
I have a friend of mine who has a double rifle in a .500 N.E. (Nitro Express, 570grn bullet) Velocity is 2100fps, Energy is 5,800-lbs, Penetration Index is 90, the Shock Level Index is 1195 and it will shoot one barrel at 1.5 inches at 50 yards, however that second barrel is only going to print 2.5 inches. All in all, is group is a 3.5-inch group at 50 yards. His off hand group at 100 yards over sticks, is 6 to 8 inches. In any case, most of everything he has shot with that $16,000 dollar rifle has been 50 yards and less. Recoil is 80 lbs.
My .470-Capstick shoots a .475 cal, 600 grn bullet at a velocity of 2200-fps, energy is 6400-lbs, Penetration is 115 and Shock Power Index is 1135. Recoil is 85 lbs.
A .460-Weatherby shoots a .458 cal 500 grn bullet at 2550 velocity, energy is 7400, Penetration is a whopping 151, Shock Power Index is 1200. Recoil on this rifle to the shooter is close to 100 lbs without a muzzle brake. I always run my ammo for the day through my rifles that morning before setting out to hunt. I mark them with a felt pen, so I know they have been cycled through the action and been good to go.
I feel like many of those professional hunters and the real stopping rifles have a Shock Power Index of 1600 or better and those are rifles like the .600 Nitro Express with a 900 grain bullet. Shock Power Index is 2293. The .500 A-Square with a 600 grain bullet going 2450-fps and Shock Power Index is 1660. The .577 N.E. 750 grn bullet at 2050fps, Energy-7000-lbs. Shock Power Index is 1880. The caliber called the T-REX or .577 Tyrannosaur....750 grn bullet at 2460fps, Energy is 10,000 lbs, Penetration Index is 117, Shock Power Index is a whopping 2700. I am not going to give recoil on above calibers !
I would trust my Control feed savage.
I never seem to have any problems with it at all but one thing I will say is
I guess it depends on the type of DG, the situation and how your nerves are.
One thing for sure, I dont care for the type of safety on a savage in a DG situation.
I would rather have one on the side similar to a ruger bolt action.
Its fine for normal hunting situations, but in a split second decision you dont have time for
mistakes like if you are being charged by a Brown Bear, Lion, Buffalo etc.
That said I think its just as important to know your rifle/pistol/shotgun inside and out and run a lot of rounds through it before
you get into that situation.
For me the Caliber would be a 416 Ruger or a 416 Taylor, but that might change depending on what I was doing.
Like whats the local ammo availability. 375 ruger too or 375 H+H.
Well after a lot of patients, that friend of mine with the big bore in 500 N.E. has got his rifle regulated with it now shooting 2 inch groups at 50 yds. I didn't think he would ever be able to it is finally on the }$money${ and I am sure happy for him. I bet he has spent over 100 hours shooting and working up loads for that great looking rifle.
I am now in the process of trying to purchase a big bolt rifle myself.......Stopper Rifle! I'll post when I get the rifle home.
Tammons I gave a lot of thought to being charged by animal like those bears and buffalos etc. A farmer friend of mine went on a trip 5 years ago and he used a .416 Reminton magnum. He said he hit the bull good on the first shot he thought. It took a total of 7 shots to put that big bull down and the ph, tracker and he went into the thick stuff to find the black devil.
I asked him why this buffalo didn't drop and he just shook his head saying " it would just not go down for keeps". The ph shot it twice with his double gun and then reloaded to go on the chase. My friend shot it something like 4 times himself. Man that had to be a real spooky situation for all of them.
I then decided I want a much larger gun for my next trip over there where the buff are thicker than flies.
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Have not had too many failures with very heavy solid bullets over 1/2 inch diameter placed in perfect locations on the animal.
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Tammons:
I do have a push-feed .375 H&H that I personally have put 700 rds thru without a problem on two trips to the field. After making a trip this year I have just decided that caliber will just not knock over mountains instantly and I want (not need) something bigger. So if you were going to get another would you start with a Savage and build what you want or just bu something like a ruger or CZ?
Hammer & Tracer:
I agree bigger would be better but my skinny butt behind some of that 500+ gr 2400fps has two problems, I couldn't carry an appropriate weight rifle all day and I can't convince the trigger finger to pull hard enough to make it go off.
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... I couldn't carry an appropriate weight rifle all day...
That is what gun bearers are for.
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I know this is a Savage forum, but I am still kicking myself for not buying the Rem 798 in 458 Mag from CDNN when they had them for $499 about a year or so ago.
:'(
I am no expert, but if I were gun shopping for something big in a bolt action, personally I would probably start with a longer Savage CF action, IE the Rum length, 375 H+H length etc. I think that length mag will take a 458 lott.Originally Posted by Mbarnes72
I just like savages because I can never make up my mind on what caliber I like today.
A 500 gr 458 barnes TSX bullet at Lott speed would take down most anything on the planet or you can handload a 458 win mag at lott length and basically shoot the same FPS.
The only real issue I have with the Savage rifles in a CQ situation is the safety.
I would rather have a more positive type safety like the type on a Ruger.
The CF mechanism is a bit iffy but it works.
Forget the guys name or where I read it, but there was an AK guide that carried a 458 win mag with an 18" barrel for backup when guiding for Brown Bear. He said it was the only round he had used that would just make a bear "Sit Down".
Than again that is not a Cape Buff or the like.
Still you can get a 458 win mag barrel from brownells for about $200.
As far as the above post where it took Upteen shots to down a Buff with a 416, I would like to know the bullets they were using.
Personally I think barnes bullets would be the way to go.
As far as dangerous game in North America, I would take a good lever action. Personally I like the 444 marlin. But thats just me
They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
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While I enjoy and use all the 44 caliber guns...
For dangerous game with a 444...
Make sure that you have a tough deep-penetrating rifle bullet for that and not an expanding hollowpoint which may be designed for smaller game used in a lower velocity 44.
Otherwise you might get a large surface wound but no vitals.
I have tested my 500 A-Square with 570-grain Woodleigh softs which are designed for the lower velocity 500 Nitro Express.
From the Nitro Express these bullets expand and penetrate nicely.
From the A-Square these same bullets become a flattened pancake and create so much confetti and surface excitement but would never reach the heart or mechanical structure.
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For me a big bore lever action would have to be a 45-70 loaded hot or a 450 Marlin. I had a 444ss and it will surely down anything in NA, but for Buff and brown bear I would rather have a 45-70. Bigger Bullet, more variety of bullets etc.
I almost bought one of these about 3 months ago for a woods rifle.
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/p...ducts_id/60901
I know this is a Savage forum, but I am still kicking myself for not buying the Rem 798 in 458 Mag from CDNN when they had them for $499 about a year or so ago.
Thomae....
I bought this gun....IT IS THE REMINGTON 798!! It has a wood stock, fold down hooded iron sights. and fits regular scope bases. It shoots like a dream with 470 gr hardened lead solids! You won't be dissapointed!
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/p...ducts_id/60277
Congratulations! According to the catalog, it is currently only available with the synthetic stock, and no iron sights, but I'd still take it. ;D Glad to hear that you are enjoying yours. (FWIW: I do have the Remington Model 5 (Zastavia Z5) in 22LR and it is a tack driver. I did some easy trigger mods and it is a sweet shooter.)
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