Using a FL Bushing die to neck size only?

[Rocca]

I'm about to order the Dies for my new 260 but would like to know if I can use this http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.co...sku=0007636531
for neck sizing only for 131.00.
I can get this http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.co...sku=0007638531 for an extra $20.00+ but is it needed?
I dont see why I would need 3 dies if I can use the FL die to just neck size only.

Am I missing something?

[82boy]

Why would you only want to neck size?
There is no advantage to it. The myths that the brass last longer, or that the round is more accurate, or what ever are just not true. It worked back in the 1970's ,and that is what people did back then because the brass, bullets, powder, and equipment were just not that great. In today's world we have good stuff. There is a major swing in benchrest and other disciplines to go to FL sizing everytime, majority of shooters are FL resizing, the ones that are not are the ones that say if it ain't broke why fix it.

Set the die up to bump the shoulder back .002 and forget it, FL re-size everytime.

Also on dies good dies don't have to be expensive. A set of Forester will do everything them expensive dies will do , and do it better, for less cost. $89 bucks does it all.
http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.co...ku=00070U04252

[Rocca]

Your exactly right. I have always neck sized to save the brass. Since Ive gotten back into shooting recently I have read a LOT of articles suggesting neck sizing is not only better for the brass but for accuracy also. And I suppose you get a bit more case volume as well. I really havent seen anything suggesting FL sizing is better/required other than to shoot in Semi autos. I've also talked to a hand full of the benchrest shooters at the range and all of them recommend Neck sizing.

I did look at that Forster set but am under the impression that with bushing dies I can adjust neck tension for better accuracy and that set doesnt look like it uses bushings.

Back to the forums to get more info on neck vs Fl sizing....

I would love to see any info you have on FL sizing being better 82boy. It would sure make reloading easier.

[chainsaw]

They must have invented better brass since the 70's.don't listen to 82's hooey he obviously has no idea what he is talking about and has not done much,if any,reloading.neck sizing brass makes it last longer especially if you anneal once or twice.as for accuracy,it does improve it.not so much that you will see a drastic increase in a hunting grade rifle,but it is noticible.

[Samdweezel05]

My question is, why would you want to FL size? Once the brass is fired in your chamber, it's an exact copy. Only thing you need to do to the brass is size the neck to regain neck tension. I just buy 3 die sets now and only use the FL sizer for new brass or brass that I might buy second hand.

[maxima2]

Your first link will full length resize the case body each time.
Your second link will neck size only with the bushing die and has the body die to size the case body if it starts to fit the chamber too tight after a few firings.

[82boy]

.don't listen to 82's hooey he obviously has no idea what he is talking about and has not done much,if any,reloading.

You got me, your right, I don't do much reloading or shooting at all.
Last year I only went through a couple of barrels and 18 lbs of powder.
Come to think of it , I think I won a few benchrest match's last year.

[chainsaw]

Then why would you say that fireformed and neck sized brass doesn,t last longer than fl sized brass?i have personally got 12 to 18 loads just neck sizing,and have never got more than 7 or 8 loads when fl sizing.i regularly shoot with a fewguys that have been shooting comp. For 30 or 40 years and they have always told me to neck size for better scores.

[68injunhed]

To say that neck sizing instead of FL sizing doesn't help with brass life, is to ignore the physics of work hardening.

[possible]

+1 For neck sizing with a light bump on the shoulder.

[82boy]

Then why would you say that fireformed and neck sized brass doesn,t last longer than fl sized brass?i have personally got 12 to 18 loads just neck sizing,and have never got more than 7 or 8 loads when fl sizing.

You are over working the brass when you are fl sizing, you need to adjust the die so that it is only bumping the brass back .002. I get 20+ loadings on brass that is FL sized. I won a match Benchrest mach last month with a .264 aggregate with brass that has been loaded 18 times. Everytime it was FL sized, and it shows NO signs of being work hardened, or giving up any accuracy.

Last year I won a factory class varmint shoot with a Savage 22/250 that the brass has been fl sized at least 10 times. (And this is cheap Win brass.)

Like I said in my original post the people that are still neck sizing brass think that if it ain't broken why fix it. All I can say is if you don't believe Benchrest shooters are Full legnth resizing, read Mike Ratigans (Hall of fame member, and USA BR team member for several years standing.) book Extream Rifle Accuracy.
http://extremerifleaccuracy.com/
Watch Jack Nearys tuning video.
http://savageshooters.com/SavageForu...c,36009.0.html
Check out Benchrest Central.
http://benchrest.com/showthread.php?...rs+neck+sizing

[Rocca]

I get the feeling that when bechrest shooters like 82boy talk about FL sizing and barely bumping the shoulder back .002 that a lot of people (who have always NSed) take it to mean the same thing as FL sizing where you take the case back to original dimensions. Until I started reading whatever I could find on the subject in the last few day, thats what I thought anyway. Only FL sizing just enough to bump the shoulder back .002 was new to me.

And in reality, bumping the shoulder back .002 does work the brass more. I'm betting that also, in reality, a .002 bump isnt enough to make a noticable difference in case life AND ensures a better feed. THAT is why, from what 82boy and other BR shooters are going to ".002 bump FL sizing". But they arent FL sizing all the way back down to factory specs.

Make sence?

[chainsaw]

Well then,my apologies to you sir.Tell me,what tools do I need to measure my die adjustment?I'll give it a try.

[bigcatdaddy]

exactly Rocca. Seems to this neewb that ..."just enough to bump the shoulder back", isn't a full-length resize. Funny...he's really neck sizing with a small bump.

[82boy]

Well then,my apologies to you sir.Tell me,what tools do I need to measure my die adjustment?I'll give it a try.

When I have a barrel chambered I have them cut off a barrel stub, and short chamber it to make a chamber gauge. With that gauge I take a Piece of fired brass measure it with my calipers, I then size the brass, and place it back into the gauge, to see how much the brass was sized. (I can also measure other things with this stub, such as jamb length, neck specks length, and diameter and fit.)

I also use Harrell's dies, (Again good dies don't have to be expensive, Harrell's will do a custom fit neck bushing FL die for $70 bucks.) and Lynwood gives a small brass chamber gauge made of brass, that works the same way. unfortunately Harrell's doesn't make many different calibers of dies, on a handfull or two, and in them cases I exclusively use Forester dies. Also if I don't have a tight neck chamber where I need to change the bushing size, I use Forester. For example if you look at my avatar, that target and match win pin, was from the 2010 IBS 600 yard Nationals. The gun that I shot had a standard (No turn chamber) size chamber, and I loaded all my ammo with Forester dies. (FL Sizer, and Micrometer seater.)

In the past shooters measured set back by putting the bolt into the gun, (Most would remove the firring pin.) and closing it on the cartridge, They looked for a depth where the bolt would close with just a slight amount of tension feel on the bolt at the mid to bottom of the stroke. They would adjust the die until they found the spot, where the bolt would not just flop down on the sized brass.

Other tools can be used, (I can not say I have ever used them.) Sinclair and Hornady Both sell a headspace gauge that attaches to the caliper, and allows you to measure how much set back you have.

On my 6PPC I use shims under the die, so that I can closely change set back. I also only set me die to push the shoulder back .0005. In my other guns I strive for a .002 should bump back.

The reason why the brass that is full sized last so long is it is exercised, moved in and out but only a very small amount, this exercising of the brass actually makes it last longer. Now over working the brass (Excessive sizing) is what work hardens brass. One problem with neck sizing is the brass looses its rigidity, and will not go back into shape, This happens because the brass is not exercised. It develops a memory, and stays in that shape, even if you FL size it, it goes back to the same shape. So eventually the neck sized only brass looses it shape, and ability to go back to it. (Now this is after, many firings.)

just enough to bump the shoulder back", isn't a full-length resize. Funny...he's really neck sizing with a small bump.

No, not really, If you look at my brass that is out of my dies, you can see and tell that the entire brass has been sized. There is sizing marks all the way to the base.

[gotcha]

This discussion reminds me of the old saying " the old is forever new " I think 82boy did a great job of explaining the minimal F/L sizing technique. However, the idea of using a partially chambered barrel stub for a headspace gauge, among other things, goes back to the 1960's if not further. I've got one for .223 Rem made in 1984. Rather than using shims to adjust die for minimal shoulder set back I just use a simple automotive feeler gauge between die & shell holder. The benchrester who made my rifle & taught me this trick held a IBS club record in Indiana for 27 years. Simply said, he new his s--t ! Seems kind of ironic that this "new" method has just been discovered..................... again. This observation is in no way meant to deminish 82boys skill & perserverence. Just meant to say some of new fangled stuff isn't all that new. ;D Dale