Model 12FV .223 reloads chamber hard, and not into lands.

[OFD789]

I tried some new loads with a new bullet, 55gr Vmax on 24.5gr H335, to shoot long range for the first time. I had been shooting 63gr Sierra SPs just fine. I had my bullet seater all the way down and could not get below 2.260". The loads were a little stiff to close the bolt on, but chambered.

Yesterday I investigated the setup. I markered the bullet with a sharpie, and locked it in. I expected to see marks from the lands, but it never reached them. Instead the bullet had a ring all the way around it .035" deep. I looked it up and appears the throat, leade, or ball seat (not sue of the correct term) is tight in my chamber and the bullet is hitting it snugly, keeping it from reaching the lands.

Have any of you heard of this before, and will it cause a problem? I would not mess with it because it was shooting sub 3" groups at 450yds, but I want it to load smoother. I did chuck the internal piece of the bullet seater in a drill press and ground it shorter with a file and stone like a mill. I will be able to get the OAL to 2.245 and just at the edge of the throat. This prevents me from being able to play with the bullet seating. Perhaps the shorter loads will shoot just fine, but if not...

[keeki]

had the same thing happen with a 223 DPMS and i never had a problem with it. It also shot outstanding

[OFD789]

I had this on the reloading forum with little return. I'm a new member but did search way back many ways and found nothing on this.

I tried some last minute new loads with a new bullet, 55gr Vmax on 24.5gr H335, to shoot longer range for the first time last week. I had my bullet seater all the way down and could not get below 2.260". The loads were a little stiff to close the bolt on, but chambered. I had been shooting 63gr Sierra SPs just fine.

Yesterday I investigated the setup. I markered the bullet with a sharpie, and locked it in. I expected to see marks from the lands, but it never reached them. Instead the bullet had a ring all the way around it .035" deep. I looked it up and appears the throat, leade, or ball seat (not sue of the correct term) is tight in my chamber and the bullet is hitting it snugly, keeping it from reaching the lands. Does this sound correct?

Have any of you heard of or had this before, and will it cause a problem? I would not mess with it because it was shooting sub 3" groups at 450yds with an undialed-in load, but I want it to load smoother. I did chuck the internal piece of the bullet seater in a drill press and ground it shorter with a file and stone like a mill. I will be able to get the OAL to 2.245 and just at the edge of the throat. This prevents me from being able to play with the bullet seating. Perhaps the shorter loads will shoot just fine, but if not or if it could lead to a problem, what is the fix, reaming the chamber?

All the brass had been fired a few times from this rifle, neck sized, and trimmed. This is an '03 or '04 stagger feed model with crappy tupperware stock. So if anyone has an aftermarket 4.275" you want to unload, let me know.

Fairly new at this so smack me in the right direction if I sound all ate-up. Thanks for the help.

Tony

[iamsniper1]

I had this on the reloading forum with little return. I'm a new member but did search way back many ways and found nothing on this.

I tried some last minute new loads with a new bullet, 55gr Vmax on 24.5gr H335, to shoot longer range for the first time last week. I had my bullet seater all the way down and could not get below 2.260". The loads were a little stiff to close the bolt on, but chambered. I had been shooting 63gr Sierra SPs just fine.

Yesterday I investigated the setup. I markered the bullet with a sharpie, and locked it in. I expected to see marks from the lands, but it never reached them. Instead the bullet had a ring all the way around it .035" deep. I looked it up and appears the throat, leade, or ball seat (not sue of the correct term) is tight in my chamber and the bullet is hitting it snugly, keeping it from reaching the lands. Does this sound correct?

Have any of you heard of or had this before, and will it cause a problem? I would not mess with it because it was shooting sub 3" groups at 450yds with an undialed-in load, but I want it to load smoother. I did chuck the internal piece of the bullet seater in a drill press and ground it shorter with a file and stone like a mill. I will be able to get the OAL to 2.245 and just at the edge of the throat. This prevents me from being able to play with the bullet seating. Perhaps the shorter loads will shoot just fine, but if not or if it could lead to a problem, what is the fix, reaming the chamber?

All the brass had been fired a few times from this rifle, neck sized, and trimmed. This is an '03 or '04 stagger feed model with crappy tupperware stock. So if anyone has an aftermarket 4.275" you want to unload, let me know.

Fairly new at this so smack me in the right direction if I sound all ate-up. Thanks for the help.

Tony

Just maybe its time to use your full length die,one can only neck size a case so many times before it becomes essential
to full length.
TIP-"The loads were a little stiff to close the bolt on, but chambered"Rounds should chamber and extract effortlessly,if not, one has a problem.
Of course this is just my opinion,I may be wrong.

[82boy]

Sound to me you have die problems. Your seater die should be able to take a short bullet like a 55g and seat it all the way down into the case. sounds like it is not adjusted right. I am guessing you are using Redding dies. There is a way to unscrew a allen screw inside the die and get more travel. SAAMI speck for a 223 COAL length is 2.260.

Try cambering a case without a bullet in it and see if the bolt is still hard to close, if ti is then you need to bump the shoulder of cases back. I don't like neck sizing, it is just 1970's technology, The brass, bullets, powder, and equipment is so much better today, there is no reason to neck size a case. Once you know your cases are in proper size then you can go onto the other problems.

Most of all Savage chambers are long and many are hard to hit the lands with. I highly suggest you find the jamb length of your chamber. This can be done a number of ways, you can buy a tool (Hornady or Sinclair.) called a over all length gauge, that will help you measure it. You can also take an old piece of brass cut a slit down the neck just place the bullet in there and chamber it. When you pull the bullet case out this should show you where the bullet is jambed into the lands. Do not measure your rounds by cartridge overall length, you need to measure the round by the ogive. (Pronounced o-jive) You will need a tool to measure this. (Hornady Sinclair.) the tool is called a comparator. Once you find your jamb length then you can seat you bullets to desired length, by ogive.

Also depending on brand of bullet you use they can vary greatly by ogive, and have different seating depths, and very well all be the same length.

[OFD789]

I have Lee dies and fixed the bullet seater, which I admit, I shouldn't have needed to do. I am out of state now doing my Reserve gig. I will have to confirm to be 100%, but I'm pretty sure my other loads chamber fine. I did the loose bullet in the neck to have the lands push it in and that's where my big problem is. The bullet never reaches them because they get jammed into a ring in the chamber smaller than the bullet diameter. I will have to wait until next week to try full length sized brass and other things.

Not to get off the subject but, I thought neck sizing was the most accurate and gave the longest case life.

[earl39]

Not to get off the subject but, I thought neck sizing was the most accurate and gave the longest case life.

Neck sizing vs. full length sizing is a complete debate in itself. Which is better? 1970's neck sizing technology or 1890's full length sizing technology. both schools of thought have valid points so it is best to pick the one that works for you.

Gary

[gotcha]

ofd789. When you shortened your seating stem you also changed the point that the seater is making contact w/ the ogive. Ideally contact should be made just above the point where the bearing suface of the bullet meets the ogive. You are loading a fragile Vmax bullet. It's jacket is thin & gets thinner close to the tip. The mods you made to your seater mean the seater is contacting the bullet jacket at it's thinnest point. This could easily squash the bullet out of shape & cause it to be too fat to pass through the throat. ( you did say the 63 gr bullet seated & shot fine) shortening the seating stem could also mean seater contacts the bullet on it's very tip instead of on the ogive. Check to see if the indentation on your bullet is being made by the seating stem rather than the throat/ leade. I had a problem similar to this and the indentation on the bullet was being caused by the seating stem opening being too small in diameter.(not a Lee die) If your powder charge is filling the case you may also be dealing w/ a "compressed charge" which prevents the bullet from seating further into the case and would compound the above issues. Stay in touch there are several here that are interested. Dale

[OFD789]

Dale, I only took about .020 off the length of the seater. They are cone shaped inside so that is a good point about the contact area changing. I don't think that amount will hurt too much, but I will check it out. The ring is not from the seater. I took the die apart to see where it contacts the bullet, which is when I got the idea to shorten it. No marks on the bullet until after I chamber it. I'm using 24.5gr of H335 and is not near case capacity. I think the 63gr soft point's different ogive and being wider at the tip seated deeper so I never ran into the chambering problem. Thanks for the replies.

Tony

[gotcha]

Tony, I just chkd. max seating depth of 55gr Nosler B-tip w/ my Lee die. Minimum OAL was 2.243". ( no mods to die ) Chkd. same bullet w/ Dillon seater & was able to push the bullet 'til it fell through the neck & rattled around in the case! So, yes the Lee appears to have limited seating depth flexibility. You can chk page #19 of this subject under my user name for specs on 223 cartridge & chamber. Note: .223 Rem throat is same dia. as bullet (.224") & will range up to only .2245" depending on chamber reamer MFG. I think 82boy & Iamsniper1 had good advice of F/L sizing case prior to determining max seating depth. Note:SAAMI spec for throat/ free-bore is ONLY .015". It's easy to understand how a bullet slightly cocked in the neck of the cartr. could jam at the opening to the free bore & never reach the lands................... I've had similar issues loading .223 Rem & had reloaded for years before understanding the "fine points" I've picked up here. Question: are you using the Lee collet die in .223 rem ??? Dale

[OFD789]

Dale, Got back home and headed right to the man cave to check this out. Going off of memory is not always the best. while really paying attention, I chambered a 55gr Amer Eagle load and was smooth. I checked my 63gr loads and can feel a slight resistance. It only scuffs the bullet on one side. I then FL sized a case, trimmed it, loaded a Vmax (no factory crimp), and chambered it. Felt a little more resistance and the full ring was on the bullet (I'm now looking for the marks on clean bullet, no marker). I then measured that the marks on all the rounds started at 1.795".

So, my 63gr bullets could be slightly cocked. NS vs FLS didn't matter, for the most part. I think it's just tight and I won't be able to seek the lands, but I don't want to have to seat really deep to have them load easily.

I have all Lee equipment, except for the RCBS auto powder dispenser I bought this weekend:). Not everybody likes their stuff, but I actually worked there for a while between active duty and college and got the stuff dirt cheap! Besides, I think it works pretty good, for a hack. Yes I usually use their collet dies for .223 and 30-06 with a light factory crimp, but have FLS dies too. All used on a 3 hole turret press.

[Quickshot]

Has anyone considered the dreaded, "Carbon Ring", Going from one bullet ogive to another without a thorough cleaning of the chamber and leade ?

[gotcha]

Tony, Quickshot makes a good point. Cleaning the chamber neck, throat & beginning of lands & grooves thoroughly would be an essential 1st step. Use cleaners that will remove both powder & copper fouling. Measure your bullets to insure .2240" dia. at 90 degree intervals around dia. ( you can't get a .2242" to .2245" bullet through a .2240" throat w/ hand pressure.) The .223 rem throat is very tight. As small as .2240" on some reamers as opposed to the larger throats on 5.56 NATO. The 1.795" reading of contact ring to base is within a couple thou. of the reading in my McGowen .223 rem using 55gr. Nosler which has a slightly different ogive shape. You may have to settle for the "ring" seating depth for your max OAL to insure ease of feeding. You can use your collet die to adjust neck tension to get a snug slip fit of bullet for determining " just touching" depth. I'll be happy to explain how, if you'd like. The accuracy you're getting is outstanding! So, personally I wouldn't do anything to modify the rifle/chamber that might ruin your results. Sounds like Keeki had a similar circumstance w/ no negative results. I'd also seriously look into a seater die that would give you more seating depth. Your Lee seems to be limited in this respect. Maybe that's why Lee gave you such a good deal ;D Dale

[OFD789]

I was scrubbing the hell out of it with three different bore cleaners including Butch's I bought over the weekend as Quickshot wrote that. May have helped a little. My Vmaxs are .2242. Combine that with a tight throat and I'm just going to have to deal with it.

Loaded a bunch up today and went to range. Half were with CCI 400s and the others with CCI 450 magnums. In each lot I shot two different charges of H335, 24.4 and 24.6. I know OAL is not the optimal way to measure but it's all I can do. Each charge had rounds at 2.251 and 2.240. Not a huge range, but I'll probably have to send my seating die in to get it any deeper. Also tried some crimped and non-crimped. I probably had too many variables at one setting, and the variables were not wide enough to make a difference. I did run a couple patches through every so often. I was not that impressed with the results, probably too pickey. The worst two were just over an inch with the rest plus or minus 3/4".

I was hoping for an obvious difference between std and mag, crimped and not crimped, and that one setup would stand out. No such luck.

Was shooting off a new bench rest bi pod for 1st time. Benches were a hare too high. Perhaps if I go back to the shooting bag it will tighten up. This because no human errors were involved, of course...I think...I want to believe.

Thanks to all of you for your wisdom and guidance. Tony

[gotcha]

Tony, You are making headway! Here's an idea for El Cheapo cartridge hd sp gauge. I've never used it myself but picked it up here on the forum. For .223 rem you could use a 32-20 Win, 32H&R, 32 auto, 32S&W cartridge case. Slip the case over the neck of your .223 & center the primer pocket of both cartridges between the jaws of your calipers. Check this dimension before & after F/L sizing for checking cartridge hd sp. If you keep your hd sp to .002" You can screw die out of press slightly or use automotive feeler gauge between die & shell holder to lock in your setting. Your cartridge will be more uniform in velocity w/o crimp. You're using a fast powder that ignites easily & don't really need a Mag primer. Tho' some will use magnum primers to compensate for sub zero hunting conditions only. And, by the way, thank you for your service to your country Dale