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Thread: Savage 110BA & Hornady Brass/H1000 Powder Bolt Lift issues?

  1. #1
    lgregor
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    Savage 110BA & Hornady Brass/H1000 Powder Bolt Lift issues?


    I am working up loads for a new Savage 110BA chambered in 338Lapua Mag, not yet fired, and had loads from 88.0g - 91.5g of H1000 in Hornady new Brass w/ SMK 300g rounds & 215 Magnum Primers. After putting these together I have been reading from many folks that once around the 90.0g and above there are bolt lift/stuck brass issues. This has concerned me. Can anyone elaborate on this? Since reading this I have pulled all the rounds at 90.0g & above but wondering now if I shouldnt have. I have also seen a few posters stating H1000 w/ Hornady brass and they did loads from 90.0-92.0g and would love to know the outcome. I dont get out to shoot much so I would like to bring the full range of loads but also dont want stuck brass. Please let me know your experiences. Thanks.

  2. #2
    dcloco
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    Re: Savage 110BA & Hornady Brass/H1000 Powder Bolt Lift issues?

    There are MANY conditions that can cause pressure issues.

    Elevation, humidity, ambient temperature, ammo temperature (yes!!! - prairie dogs above 90 degrees F provides great fun if you keep your ammo in the cooler - no kidding), OAL, case capacity, primers, etc, etc, etc. Literally, there are no less than 100 "normal" variables that can contribute to pressure in ANY caliber.

    Even two rifles, manufactured back to back, can be particular about what load they shoot best and when pressure signs arise. Treat every barrel as a new girlfriend - find out how/what she likes....and condition your dating plans (reloading plans) accordingly.

    I built two 6.5x55 AI's with barrels from the same manufacturer. Same reamer cut both chambers on the same lathe, by the same person. One barrel is 50 - 75 FPS faster than the other....and a hair bit more accurate. Of course, the faster/more accurate barrel was my shooting buddy's barrel...not mine. :)

    Use a MAGNUM primer with the slow burning powder. I like Remington, CCI, Winchester, or CCI.

    ....and...remember...the loads you work up in 20, 50, 75, and 90 degree temps are ALL different and will perform differently if shot at other temps then when developed.

  3. #3
    lgregor
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    Re: Savage 110BA & Hornady Brass/H1000 Powder Bolt Lift issues?

    To elaborate on my inital posting - Its my understanding that Hornady brass does not have the same material composition/strength as the Lapua branded brass. As a result folks are seeing over-expansion/lift issues with Hornady brass were as others using the identical charges with Lapua are not. Would like to hear from folks that have experience with these same components. Thanks -

  4. #4
    Nefarioud
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    Re: Savage 110BA & Hornady Brass/H1000 Powder Bolt Lift issues?

    Quote Originally Posted by lgregor
    To elaborate on my inital posting - Its my understanding that Hornady brass does not have the same material composition/strength as the Lapua branded brass. As a result folks are seeing over-expansion/lift issues with Hornady brass were as others using the identical charges with Lapua are not. Would like to hear from folks that have experience with these same components. Thanks -


    The Hornady seems like it's too soft to deal with pushing 300's over 2700. I actually tested it after I heard about the issue. Apparently I have some sort of mental condition that forces me to try to blow things up. I'd run about 275 rounds through the 110BA with Lapua brass at speeds in the mid to high 27's with no bolt lift issues. I got my hands on some once fired Hornady from a local guy and ran a ladder. Retumbo locked it up first at what seemed like a fairly mild charge and about 2640, then H1000 in the 2670 range, and US 869 at a touch over 2700.

    I like the US 869 but the loads are healthy and it doesn't take long to go through a pound of powder.

    FWIW, the Lapua brass is pricey but seems to be worth every penny I ran a set of five cases repeatedly through all of my load work and they've yet to show any signs of failure

  5. #5
    lgregor
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    Re: Savage 110BA & Hornady Brass/H1000 Powder Bolt Lift issues?

    NefariousD - Thank you for those specifics. Do you recall the range of charge in the Hornady brass that started giving you issues? Man, I am trying to figure out if its even worth me sending what I have down range at all or pulling them all, tossing the Hornady brass and starting over... Some report fine results and just wondering if for this initial outing if I would be ok with the 86.0-89.5 that I am down to. Thanks -


  6. #6
    Nefarioud
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    Re: Savage 110BA & Hornady Brass/H1000 Powder Bolt Lift issues?

    Quote Originally Posted by lgregor
    NefariousD - Thank you for those specifics. Do you recall the range of charge in the Hornady brass that started giving you issues? Man, I am trying to figure out if its even worth me sending what I have down range at all or pulling them all, tossing the Hornady brass and starting over... Some report fine results and just wondering if for this initial outing if I would be ok with the 86.0-89.5 that I am down to. Thanks -

    Best I can say is run it.

    My notes (these are a disaster, and may not be as accurate or complete as they should. I was goofing around trying to get the bolt to lock up and had more attention focused on trying not to blow my face off than writing) show that Mine went to 88.6 before I had any pressure signs but the velocity wasn't all that great (danced around 2620) the Lapua brass took 93.9 with slight shiny spots from the ejector (don't do this, I was working up very slowly and had HBN coated bullets) YMMV

  7. #7
    Basic Member memilanuk's Avatar
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    Re: Savage 110BA & Hornady Brass/H1000 Powder Bolt Lift issues?

    Hornady brass in general (not just .338 LM) runs a bit on the soft side. When we first tested the 110BA .338LM prototypes, they had some other things going on (Engineering experimenting with some bolt design stuff) but the Hornady cases did not take pressure well at all without sticking. Even factory Hornady loads (Lapua 250 Scenar in Hornady brass) got stuck in the gun. The bolt problems centered around primary extraction, so coupled with sticky cases it made testing not very fun. Since then Savage went back to the tried-n-true bolt shroud / extraction cam design, so that 'problem' went away. I haven't honestly tried running Hornady brass 'hot' since then - instead I waited and came across some 1x and 2x fired Lapua cases. With the exception of two rounds (spectacularly high over-pressure loads) I have not had any problem with extraction at all - I could probably safely turn the juice up a good bit.

    Almost every case I've read of having extraction issues since these guns went into production a) involved Hornady brass and b) was solved by switching to Lapua brass.

  8. #8
    lgregor
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    Re: Savage 110BA & Hornady Brass/H1000 Powder Bolt Lift issues?

    Thank you all for the info & the specifics. I feel a little better about having 88g rounds set as my sighters but it sounds like the ones above that I need to pull and take the hit and get some Lapua brass. From what others have tested it sounds like 88g may be acceptable and on the upper limit before getting stuck cases. Guess the question then is after I fire these, what to do with the Hornady brass. Are they pretty much paper weights? Seems very sad and a waste 70bucks for two boxes shipped.

    As folks get more results pls post. As soon as I get out I will take my chrono and post my findings as well.



    Thanks -

  9. #9
    Basic Member memilanuk's Avatar
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    Re: Savage 110BA & Hornady Brass/H1000 Powder Bolt Lift issues?

    Do what I did... sell them on line. Trust me, you won't take that much of a hit on the price. A lot of people looking for any way to not pay what Lapua charges for new .338 LM brass (not that I blame them) will pay 'top dollar' for alternatives. Penny-wise, pound-foolish in my view but thats the way it goes.

    There is a guy over on Longrangehunting.com selling 1x fired .338 LM brass, fired in a Rem 700 bolt gun (i.e. not fired in a sloppy mil-spec chamber), from Black Hills factory loads. He had 1000 of them... when the price went down abit I bought a hundred to go with the fifty 2x fired stuff I'd picked up locally.

    HTH,

    Monte

  10. #10
    lgregor
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    Re: Savage 110BA & Hornady Brass/H1000 Powder Bolt Lift issues?

    Quote Originally Posted by memilanuk
    Hornady brass in general (not just .338 LM) runs a bit on the soft side. When we first tested the 110BA .338LM prototypes, they had some other things going on (Engineering experimenting with some bolt design stuff) but the Hornady cases did not take pressure well at all without sticking. Even factory Hornady loads (Lapua 250 Scenar in Hornady brass) got stuck in the gun. The bolt problems centered around primary extraction, so coupled with sticky cases it made testing not very fun. Since then Savage went back to the tried-n-true bolt shroud / extraction cam design, so that 'problem' went away. I haven't honestly tried running Hornady brass 'hot' since then - instead I waited and came across some 1x and 2x fired Lapua cases. With the exception of two rounds (spectacularly high over-pressure loads) I have not had any problem with extraction at all - I could probably safely turn the juice up a good bit.

    Almost every case I've read of having extraction issues since these guns went into production a) involved Hornady brass and b) was solved by switching to Lapua brass.
    Thanks for that and the followup posted info. I ended up pulling all my loads and making 20 for sighting in at 88.0g. It sounds like this should be acceptable and at the upper limits of the Hornady brass before experiencing sticking issues. I am going to switch to Lapua but going to get the initial sight in.

    Curious to know, you noted ' since then ' when they made a change even tho you haven't tried hot loads after, how long ago was this? Is there a particular s/n or series starting that would denote old vs changed extractor? How can I tell when mine was produces and which category that it would fall in (old or new)

    Thanks again -

  11. #11
    Basic Member memilanuk's Avatar
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    Re: Savage 110BA & Hornady Brass/H1000 Powder Bolt Lift issues?

    I think you missed the key word 'prototypes'... we were testing the pre-production models last fall (2009). All the production models should be fine; they simply changed the parts in question back to what is box-standard regular old 110 pieces, so I have no reason to think there would be any problem with them.

  12. #12
    lgregor
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    Re: Savage 110BA & Hornady Brass/H1000 Powder Bolt Lift issues?

    Thanks, I caught that AFTER I posted the question... One question that I do still have, wondering if anyone can tell me, is how to tell the production date given my S/N of my 110BA?? I checked the savage site and there isnt anything online to tell and they are not accepting emails due to volume. Thanks -

  13. #13
    Basic Member memilanuk's Avatar
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    Re: Savage 110BA & Hornady Brass/H1000 Powder Bolt Lift issues?

    Mmmm... not that I know of. There are some folks on the board who are more up on that sort of thing than I am.

    But I gotta ask... it had to have been made in the last year - why the big interest in exactly *when*? Generally they make production runs every so often depending on demand - I think 60-90 days.

  14. #14
    lgregor
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    Re: Savage 110BA & Hornady Brass/H1000 Powder Bolt Lift issues?

    Quote Originally Posted by memilanuk
    Mmmm... not that I know of. There are some folks on the board who are more up on that sort of thing than I am.

    But I gotta ask... it had to have been made in the last year - why the big interest in exactly *when*? Generally they make production runs every so often depending on demand - I think 60-90 days.
    My primary interest in the manufacture date of this rifle is because of early reports I read of sear lockup issues with the trigger assembly. I know when I bought it but would like to know when it was produced if it was after this sear lockup issue correction or if I will be facing this as a potential problem. Thanks -

  15. #15
    Basic Member memilanuk's Avatar
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    Re: Savage 110BA & Hornady Brass/H1000 Powder Bolt Lift issues?

    Best bet is to just call Savage customer service and check - straight from the source, not from third-parties online.

  16. #16
    bodywerks
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    Re: Savage 110BA & Hornady Brass/H1000 Powder Bolt Lift issues?

    Quote Originally Posted by lgregor
    To elaborate on my inital posting - Its my understanding that Hornady brass does not have the same material composition/strength as the Lapua branded brass. As a result folks are seeing over-expansion/lift issues with Hornady brass were as others using the identical charges with Lapua are not. Would like to hear from folks that have experience with these same components. Thanks -
    Yes, I have experienced the exact same issue with the exact same gun with hornady brass. Only difference was that I was using Retumbo. On memory, I believe the max load for 300gr bullets was something like 94 grains. Well, I started having heavy bolt lift at somewhere around 89 grains. I have since switched to Lapua brass and am currently up to 92 grains of retumbo(still working up a load) under 300SMK's with zero bolt lift issues.
    Bottom line, the Hornady 338LP brass is junk. Go to Lapua and be done with it.

  17. #17
    lgregor
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    Re: Savage 110BA & Hornady Brass/H1000 Powder Bolt Lift issues?

    Thanks for those Specifics Bodywerks. Thats exactly what I am planning on doing. I just ordered 21 singles of once fired Lapua brass today to do my load workup. I have 20rounds formed, in the Hornady brass, at 88.0g for signting in my optics. Sadly I am not sure what I am going to do with it once I am done. I guess sell it for cheap and try to recover a few bucks. A real shame. One thing I have come across, but havent found specific differences, is a commercial Lapua brass & a Military Lapua brass. From what I can understand the Military brass does not have crimped primers, perhaps its a little thicker? Not sure.

  18. #18
    lgregor
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    Re: Savage 110BA & Hornady Brass/H1000 Powder Bolt Lift issues?

    For those interested, I did some measurements to see what is the longest COAL i can have in my Savage 110ba in 338 LPM. Found the max length with a 300grain Sierra Match King touching the rifling at exactly 3.731" long. Performed 4 measurements and amazingly came out the same each time. The standard COAL for a 338 LPM is calling for 3.600. While certainly every rifle will have some variance this at least gives some idea of how much play in length for working up loads. I have seated mine with a COAL at 3.680 and anxious to get out and give them a try.

  19. #19
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    Re: Savage 110BA & Hornady Brass/H1000 Powder Bolt Lift issues?

    This is a little off the main subject. But I have 300 Remington ultra mag I shoot Remington brass and after some of the hot loads really gave my shoulder a work out so I backed off But none of the hot loads stuck ejected fine. If you experience the problem I would call Savage they are a fabulous company to deal with, I had a problem and they went out of thier way to help me. Velocity doesn't make for accuracy. The lighter load shot a fantastic group so I left it there. I am sure the 338 will still do all the killing you want to do with a lighter load, but you should be able to go the max or a near max load w/o the cases sticking if it occurs with the Lapua then I woul look into another possability. Good Luck Lou
    A great civilization is not conqured from without,until it has destroyed itself from within. In God We Trust

  20. #20
    helotaxi
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    Re: Savage 110BA & Hornady Brass/H1000 Powder Bolt Lift issues?

    Quote Originally Posted by ourway77
    This is a little off the main subject. But I have 300 Remington ultra mag I shoot Remington brass and after some of the hot loads really gave my shoulder a work out so I backed off But none of the hot loads stuck ejected fine. If you experience the problem I would call Savage they are a fabulous company to deal with, I had a problem and they went out of thier way to help me. Velocity doesn't make for accuracy. The lighter load shot a fantastic group so I left it there. I am sure the 338 will still do all the killing you want to do with a lighter load, but you should be able to go the max or a near max load w/o the cases sticking if it occurs with the Lapua then I woul look into another possability. Good Luck Lou
    The problem is the Hornady brass and is not isolated to Savage rifles. The solution is to go with the Lapua brass. It really is that simple. Lapua had issue with case stretch when they were doing the initial development of the .338 when using conventional case web design and standard alloy brass. They ended up redesigning the case to handle the pressure and went with a non-standard alloy to better handle the pressure. The external dimensions are the same as the .416 Rigby, which provided the original parent case. Lapua discovered that the Rigby brass could not withstand the pressures that they wanted to run so they started over with the same external dimensions but new specs for the thickness of the web. Hornady brass is known for being on the soft side to begin with. That doesn't couple well with an extremely large extremely high pressure cartridge. If they got the web thickness wrong as well...not saying that they did...it would only make matters worse.

    Bottom line, .338 Lapua isn't something that you do on a tight budget. Unless you have one heck of a brake or just like beating up your shoulder, it's also not a cartridge that you're going to run several hundred round through in a week or so. An initial investment in good brass of a hundred pieces or so could well last for years. Get the good stuff and worry about other things.

  21. #21
    lgregor
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    Re: Savage 110BA & Hornady Brass/H1000 Powder Bolt Lift issues?

    Without a doubt - One thing I have learned, as I started off with two boxes of new Hornady brass…. TOSSEM.

    Its a hard reality those with this rifle face as stuck brass/sticky bolt lift even at a lower 88g charge of H1000 is still a problem. I put thru 20 rounds of H1000 @ 88g as my sighters and the last 5% of bolt lift was a little tight. Switched over to the rest of the loads done in once fired Lapua stamped brass, in .5g increments, all the way to 92.0g of H1000 and perfect bolt lift and release.

    I sat there amazed and acknowledged what I read in postings to be 100% true. Lapua stamped brass is the ONLY way to go with the Savage 110BA Rifle chambered in 338 Lapua Mag.

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