Classified Changed May Be Coming!

[J.Baker]

If you keep tabs on Gun Rights news, you'll likely already know about Biden and the DOJ's most recent attempt to bypass congress to implement their "universal background checks" policy. This latest change has to do with how the DOJ will define what constitutes a "firearms dealer" and what "engaging in the business of dealing firearms" entails. Long story short, these new definitions or interpretations will make person-to-person gun sales illegal unless the seller has an FFL and performs the required background check on the buyer. This applies to gun shows, face-to-face sales - even to a family member, selling online like in our classifieds or on websites like ArmsList, etc.

Naturally I believe, like I'm sure most of you believe, that this is a huge over-reach by the bureaucratic state (DOJ) that goes far beyond their legal authority as these definitions are defined by law and thus can only be redefined by an an act of congress. Unfortunately that legal fight will have to play itself out in the courts which could take years, and until it's decided this new definition or interpretation will be in place and enforced by the ATF and the DOJ.

The "public posting" of this change was made on April 10th, 2024 and by law it will go into effect 30-days after posting on May 9th, 2024.

This being the case, barring a court injunction preventing the ATF and DOJ from enforcing this change pending trial I'm afraid we're going to have to change our classified rules and prohibit the listing or sale of any complete firearms or serial numbered parts (actions/receivers) on the site. This change will go into effect on this site starting May 1, 2024.

I don't "think" we (the site) could be charged by the DOJ for facilitating, but I'm not a lawyer and I'm not going to risk it knowing how this DOJ and the ATF have been acting under this administration. This change is more to help protect the uninformed from getting themselves into trouble as I'm sure the ATF and DOJ are going to be scouring the internet for forums like ours with classifieds to go after people with these new changes.

I would much rather someone be mad at me for not being able to buy/sell their gun or action here than to risk them having to possibly defend themselves against our current government in a court battle that would likely bankrupt them and/or force them to accept a plea deal because they can't afford to defend themselves.

For more detailed information on this change and/or to read the full text of the public announcement by the DOJ see the following links:

https://www.ammoland.com/2024/04/atf...-a-gun-dealer/

https://www.ammoland.com/2024/04/ap-...rs-to-freedom/

https://www.nraila.org/articles/2024...irearm-sellers

https://saf.org/saf-new-background-c...s-war-on-guns/

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justi...irearms-dealer

Oddly I couldn't find a single article covering this on the GOA website.

[LDSILLS]

And you and other Gun Websites should be concerned as the rule is so convoluted it would take a genius years to figure out what its meaning is.

You also might want to read this law

https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?...edition=prelim

The link above also includes BIDENS executive order developing new definitions for gun dealers. Now upon reading this order it readily comes to light that in fact President Biden no way no how put this order together. For one its ten stories above his mental capacity and I mean that kindly. It also would be written with the input from a think tank of people. So who is really in charge as I doubt Biden changed a thing he just signed it.

"Ex. Ord. No. 14092. Reducing Gun Violence and Making Our Communities Safer"

[J.Baker]

There hasn't been a single piece of legislation passed in congress in probably 60-80 years that was actually written by an elected member of congress. They're all written by lobbyists and special interest groups, they just shop them around to different rep's and senators until they find one willing to sponsor it - usually getting a tidy campaign contribution for doing so in return.

[J.Baker]

BTW, let's try to keep the politics out of this in the replies and just see this as it was intended - an informative post to notify the members of a pending change to the rules.

[LDSILLS]

I will indeed stop the rhetorical political writings Mr. Baker my apology.

[J.Baker]

The biggest (and scariest) part of this whole thing is that the ATF and DOJ aren't going to come after you with criminal charges where THEY have a the burden to prove you are guilty of violating the law beyond a reasonable doubt. Oh no, they're going to go after people with civil charges where YOU have to prove your innocence with a preponderance of evidence proving you didn't do whatever they say you did. They just have to make the accusation and your life for the next couple of years is FUBAR. And you just know if by some miracle of God you manage to win your case, you can bet your last dollar the ATF and DOJ will appeal the decision knowing full well most people can't afford to fight on case in federal court, much less a second and possibly third on appeals. They have unlimited money and we don't and they use that to their advantage.

Furthermore, as you dig deeper into the 300+ page document, you'll find that even just offering to sell a firearm or listing it for sale online (like here in the classifieds) could classify you as "dealing in firearms" without a license. Selling any firearm and making a profit of any kind now could qualify you as "dealing in firearms" without a license."

It's crazy!

I know the GOA, SAF, FPC and likely the NRA are all planning to file lawsuits, but as I said in the announcement - that will take a good deal of time to work it's way through the courts.

And here's the thing...I haven't been able to find ANYTHING in the document that says anything about the "dealing in firearms" without a license not applying if/when selling/trading a gun to a licensed dealer. So if I sell a Savage 110GL I purchased 25 years ago for $380 to a local licensed dealer for $500 because a new comparable gun selling for $700+, am I still "guilty" of "dealing in firearms" without a license because I made a profit on that gun solely because of inflation? Again, it's crazy!

[LDSILLS]

They lead you on also and say the rule is not meant to go after people with gun "collections" or an "occasional" sale. They also say they are not after people who inherit guns and sell them. The problem is if you read deeper it becomes a menagerie of words, that only a person with great skills learned in debunking a maze could get through.

27 CFR Part 478[Docket No. ATF 2022R-17;

Heres the example where they say its okay folks we wont go after you!
AG Order No. ]RIN 1140-AA58
Definition of “Engaged in the Business” as a Dealer in Firearms

Bottom of page 5
"At the same time, the final rule expressly recognizes that individuals who purchase firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or a legitimate hobby are permitted by the GCA to occasionally buy and sell firearms for those purposes, or occasionally resell to a licensee or to a family member for lawful purposes, without the need to obtain a license"

Heres an off the wall comment but something to think about:

The State Department did not manufacture guns but they bought them and in 2022 sold guns to 57% of the authoritarian regimes. Is this not a clear violation of page 25 "Definition of “Engaged in the Business” as a Dealer in Firearms" which states:
"Therefore, unlicensed persons who purchase firearms in the United States and smuggle or take them out of theUnited States (or conspire or attempt to do so) for resale in another country are nowengaging in conduct that is unlawful under the GCA." GCA is the Gun Control Act of 1965

So is the Justice Department (ATF) making rules that the State Department is violating? Maybe that would be a good place for the NRA to start driving in its screw to this ridiculous rule!

[J.Baker]

Some interesting insight and examples given by two 2AA lawyers on how the government is going to go about enforcing this change and who they will be looking at/for.

[J.Baker]

Another good informative video:

[Robinhood]

Special interests hate gun forums. Many of the haters are members of these forums or have activist join so they can report back with information, helping the critics become more educated. In some ways many of our open ways are hurting us.

Jim, You have to cover your own arse.

[Blue Avenger]

ST. PAUL, Minn. (FOX 9) - Keeping a gun in your car while on a Minnesota roadway can be considered being in a public place, according to a recent state Court of Appeals ruling.

[wbm]

If it is a "public place" then it is subject search without a warrant right?

[J.Baker]

A deeper dive into the nuances of this new change.



Here are a couple key screen shots from this video of the definitions as they now sit.

Dealer_Definition.jpg

One key thing to note in the above starts in the second line regarding, "repairing firearms OR of making OR fitting special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms." Note that there's nothing here in this meaning of what constitutes a dealer that says anything about having to make a profit.

Dealer_Definition2.jpg

Reading this one would presume that so long as your selling your personal guns from your personal collection you're safe, but that IS NOT the case as we see in this next screenshot...

PersonalCollection_Definition.jpg

This is the "catch 22" of this new rule when it comes to personal firearm sales. As we saw in the second screenshot above they say you can sell guns from your personal collection, but notice that in that definition they don't mention any of these specifics that restrict what firearms are considered personal collection guns and which ones are self-defense guns. It also didn't point out that you can only sell of your personal guns w/o being considered dealing in firearms IF you never, ever, ever buy another gun - because if you do buy a gun in the future at any time, all those guns you previously sold will now be considered as sold for profit rather than the liquidation of a personal collection.

[LDSILLS]

We need to pass state laws that require ATF agents to always have visible identification when in public! They want to change gun laws lets have them stop their sneaky ways of enforcement.

[J.Baker]

This one convers some common questions received in the comments of the last couple videos from them on this subject.