Learning 1,000 Yard +

[Taidog1]

Long, long time shooter - my first hands-on training / learning experience shooting beyond 500 yards.

Spent this past Friday and Saturday at Bang Steel in VA - long range shooting school. H-E-A-V-Y winds and frigid temps made it interesting.

Learned a TON. Dan and son Forrest know what they are doing. Patient and highly skilled. Teaching philosophy? KISS. Absolutely Loved it!!!

My Savage Low Profile Varminter in .243 Win exceeded all expectations. Handloaded 90 gr Accubonds may not have been the best LR bullet but it's what I could find in stock locally. Bullet weight up - decent BC. Did everything I asked from 500 to 1,000. When the shooter got it right - distance and wind calculations - accuracy was flat-out excellent. All to say - each and every piece of my very carefully assembled gear out performed the shooter.

All the way home, I was contemplating a heavier bullet with my 1:9.25 twist. Can't get Savage to espond to my email questions so - here goes...

Based on this week-end's training / learning experiences:

1. What is the heaviest TARGET oriented bullet I can shoot with this twist - reliably??

2. NOT interested in the 6mm Creedmoor. AM considering a 6.5 Creedmoor for all the commonly known LR target advantages. Your thoughts??

Thank you.

Cheers

[charlie b]

Short answer, go to each bullet mfg web site. Some will list the min twist for each of their bullets. EG, Berger shows their 6mm 95gn Hybrid to work with 1:9. Their 105gn says 1:8 twist is minimum.

Long answer.

The mfg rating is not the final word. For example, my 1:9 twist .223 barrel did just fine with 77gn SMK's even though the box clearly stated that a 1:8 twist was required.

Bullet stability is a multi-faceted issue. Bullet design, length, tip, and weight all combine with the rifles twist rate and muzzle velocity to determine if it will be stable or not. External affects can also apply. A combination that works on a hot summer day may not work on a cold winter day since the air density is different.

Typically a shorter bullet will have better stability, but, then the drag will be higher than a longer bullet at the same weight.

The only way to know for sure is to try some.

As for caliber choice, I went with a 6BR for informal range shooting out to 1000yd. It has a 1:8 twist barrel and typical muzzle vel is 2800-2900fps. 103gn Vapor Trail and 105gn Bergers both work well. 108gn Hornady do not. Yep, that little bit of difference is important. Whatever you choose make sure the barrel will stabilize the bullets you want to use. Recently the bullet mfgs have been making heavier bullets in calibers so a barrel made for something like the 6.5CM might come with a twist made for bullets like the 140gn, and not stabilize the new 153gn Hornady or 156gn Bergers.

[Fuj']

1. What is the heaviest TARGET oriented bullet I can shoot with this twist - reliably??

2. NOT interested in the 6mm Creedmoor. AM considering a 6.5 Creedmoor for all the commonly known LR target advantages. Your thoughts??

Thank you.

Cheers

Item #1 can not be answered reliably by anyone however.....Get on the JBM calculators web site
and it is free. You will find a page where you can look up most bullets by company and their lengths
Length is what is important......Towards the bottom of the site, you will see a section for "Stability"
It is easy and pretty straight forward. Plug in your numbers, and it will calculate a number for your
current twist rate......Your looking to be over 1.3 and will show in green. I usually try for 1.4 and
above.

Nothing magical about the 6.5 Creedmoor. I'd recommend the 6.5x47 with 130 class bullets over it.
But actually.....Just go .284/7mm like most top shooters are using in the long games.

[Taidog1]

Charlie & Fuj'...thanks. I've been behind a trigger for a very long time but now...baby steps into LR shooting. Came cloase to freezing to death on that mountain in VA but hung in and so glad i did.

I use JBM ALL the time for trajectory and terminal ft lbs numbers but never ventured out into twist rates. Will look for "stability" and proceed.

Used the Berger site to find what you pointed out. Yes on the 95 gr - no on the 105 for 9.25 twist.

.284/7mm? Long time fan for hunting...almost as good as my .270 Roy. Didn't know the 7mm was being used by the LR crowd. Shows how little I currently know.

Will look into the 6.5x47. Brass and bullets availability always a concern nowadays. Why I am considering the 6.5 Creed. LR for me? KISS please.

Thank you again for sharing gentlemen.

Cheers.

[charlie b]

YW

https://www.6mmbr.com/7mm284.html

I've gotten some good infor from this site for my other cartridges and when I was shopping for a new one.

[J.Baker]

6mm, 6.5mm or 7mm are all about equal at this point. All three offer excellent bullet selections, and there are so many different cartridge options in each now that you can pretty much pick a case size to match the velocity range you want to achieve with a given bullet. Biggest thing I look at is who makes brass for a given cartridge. If I can't get Lapua or Norma brass (though I'm here Peterson brass is pretty good as well) I won't consider it for long-range work. The other thing to consider if you're going to be shooting in matches is that a larger caliber bullet is beneficial if they're using best edge scoring.

The .257 caliber is another you could throw in there as some high BC bullets have finally become available for it in recent years, but the selection still pretty slim at this point and some can be quite a bit more expensive. It's a "happy medium" between the 6mm and 6.5mm.

[Taidog1]

Play money is limited right now - prioritizing my purchase options. Have made 2 decisions for the rest of this year:

1. Keeping my Low Profile Varmint rifle in .243 Win. Simply LIKE this rifle and have a LOT of confidence in its proven accuracy. GREAT trigger and rifle weight is helping me follow thru and see bullet impacts. Am stocked with brass, some bullets and Redding Dies working nicely.

2. With LR shooting coming on board - letting go of 2 scopes, both SFP. Looking hard at the NF NX8 FFP 4x32x50. If I can find one.

Thank you for your replies.

Cheers.

[Whynot]

Play money is limited right now - prioritizing my purchase options. Have made 2 decisions for the rest of this year:


2. With LR shooting coming on board - letting go of 2 scopes, both SFP. Looking hard at the NF NX8 FFP 4x32x50. If I can find one.

Thank you for your replies.

Cheers.

SFP works fine for LR... if it is a quality scope with good tracking and a reticle that can give you feedback... with a few minutes of studying you can figure out how to use your reticle at any power and how that changes your sub tensions... and if you are looking to save some money there's other good FFP options that wont be in the $2000 price range. It may be worth looking at that- and getting a 8 twist 243 barrel with the money you save.... because that opens up a lot better options for you with bullet choice.

[Fuj']

If staying with the equipment you have, and not paying for the higher price
Bergers, get a box of 95 gr. Sierra Match Kings.....Scope wise, All mine are
SFPs. March High Master 10-60, Nightforce Competition. 15-55, Bushnell XRS
4.5-30, and a Burris F-Flass 8-40. For the money, The Burris is a crazy good
scope and overlooked because it is Heavy. It's currently on lone to Geremee
Gervaise shooting Ridgway's 1000 yard VBR.....For a scope that you will see
the most on bench's at match's is the Night Force 15-55 Comp. I like it as good
as my March, and was on my 1000 yard gun......There is also the Vortex GE 10-60
I had one and got rid of it. They were at a good price point a few years ago, but
since then, they jacked up the price beyond reason. The NF Comp is far superior.
Take a strong look at the Burris if money is tight. I use the bracketed dot reticle
on the rifle I shoot steel with. The bracket is great when mirage gets thick and you
have a hard time trying to resolve the center.

[Rocketvapor]

The wife and I (that's always at least two $copes) have slowly moved up from 100yd play with scopes like the cheapo Diamond Backs,etc,.
The ones that we now have mounted are the Element Titan, Cronus G2, Burris XTR2 8-40 , and Bushnell XRS2 4.5-30.
The BEST one, the Burris is currently mounted on the wife's 22Nosler savage for 600yd F-Class and playing on steel @ 800.
Bought all four from classified ads on various gun forums, "like new in box".
I hope to move up to 1000yds after we (or one of us ) Masters 600.
The challenge will be US, and the little 22N, not the scopes.

[Taidog1]

Thank you Gentlemen...will spend time considering your good counsel.

A candid admission......................I came home from VA LR training, pleased with my .243 Win & 90 gr bullets. Remember now, I'm new to the LR shooting game.

Many l-o-n-g hrs have been spent studying and listening to some very good advice. As of today, with the 9.25 twist rate I have, I simply cannot shoot a heavier, more advantageous LR bullet weight. Yes, I could go to a faster twist barrel. Good advice. However, I'm also seeing a lot of good information on the 6.5 Creedmoor for LR Target shooting. Not going to rush this but I am considering a trade to a 6.5 C. Good rifles available. >> For me now << it would be easier to simply move over. TBD.

Thanks again.

[charlie b]

"Good" rifles is relative. If your shoots really well then I'd just consider a good barrel. Yes, it can be as much as a new rifle with a stock barrel, but, it will shoot much better. I'd not trade unless the new gun has a premium barrel.

For now just learn to shoot better. Use quality bullets and concentrate on loading technique. Then, consider a new barrel in a chambering of choice. If I were doing competition at longer range I'd be tempted by the 7mm's, like the .284 or PRC (would take some research and advice from Fuj and others).

[Taidog1]

"Good" rifles is relative. If your shoots really well then I'd just consider a good barrel. Yes, it can be as much as a new rifle with a stock barrel, but, it will shoot much better. I'd not trade unless the new gun has a premium barrel.

For now just learn to shoot better. Use quality bullets and concentrate on loading technique. Then, consider a new barrel in a chambering of choice. If I were doing competition at longer range I'd be tempted by the 7mm's, like the .284 or PRC (would take some research and advice from Fuj and others).

Thank you Charlie. Much appreciated. Am weighing all my options as you and others are suggesting.

As for the 7mm's............I've been on the hunting side of this for a VERY long time. Too many rifles / cartridges to count. Have always been a 277 / 284 fan for all the advantages you already know. I LOVE my .270 Weatherby. Recoil with that rifle and my '06 and Whelen - never a problem. Same with the 7mm's. So...NOT discounting your recommendations.

That said...one VERY important lesson I learned in VA was to follow thru after the shot and visually see my POI. I know I can do that with a .243. Confident I could do that with a 6.5 Creed. Not sure I can do that with a bigger bore??????? Maybe I can? Remember...I'm new to the LR game.

Cheers.

[South Prairie jim]

Many long range records have been set with Vortex Golden Eagle scopes with a street price of $1200, if your hitting targets with a 243 now you’ll hit more with a good scope.

[charlie b]

Thank you Charlie. Much appreciated. Am weighing all my options as you and others are suggesting.

As for the 7mm's............I've been on the hunting side of this for a VERY long time. Too many rifles / cartridges to count. Have always been a 277 / 284 fan for all the advantages you already know. I LOVE my .270 Weatherby. Recoil with that rifle and my '06 and Whelen - never a problem. Same with the 7mm's. So...NOT discounting your recommendations.

That said...one VERY important lesson I learned in VA was to follow thru after the shot and visually see my POI. I know I can do that with a .243. Confident I could do that with a 6.5 Creed. Not sure I can do that with a bigger bore??????? Maybe I can? Remember...I'm new to the LR game.

Cheers.

I can't agree more. I don't compete but recoil is one of the main reasons I picked a 6BR.

For some complex reasons I have a 6.5CM I am building now, hoping it will shoot well. It is not a custom barrel so will have to wait and see.

[LDSILLS]

I can't agree more. I don't compete but recoil is one of the main reasons I picked a 6BR.

For some complex reasons I have a 6.5CM I am building now, hoping it will shoot well. It is not a custom barrel so will have to wait and see.

Taidog1,

Charlie and I discussed 6mm-BR with regards to my rifle build. The discussion stemmed from me discovering the the scarcity of 6mm-BR Lapua and Norma brass, and Berger bullets. I am now questioning if I chose the wrong caliber with the 6mm-BR. As Charlie mentioned to me "I hate to limit my choice of calibers based on scarcity of components". Unfortunately that is where we are currently. I did manage to find some Norma Brass and some Alpha Brass. As for bullets Sierras are available but its sketchy. Bottomline before you choose a caliber in our modern times you need to make component availability as part of your choice determinations.

Here is a website that identifies where some components may be found. https://www.shootingbot.com/brass/rifle?s=6mm+br+norma

No one mentioned Sightron Long Range Scopes. Glass is good, and I have yet to have one that does not track well. Price is moderate compared to "popular name" brands.

Speaking of tracking, once your scope is dialed in no matter what you buy make sure it tracks very well. If you have never heard of the "tall target test" read up on it. If your tired of reading watch the test being performed by Bryan Litz. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12Wf0Cuwwi8 If it doesn't track send it back for a replacement of refund.

[aldan]

+1 for the Sightron, am very pleased with mine and saved some money.

[Taidog1]

To all...

Thank you responding. Really do appreciate being here.

This is just an update, nothing more.

The rifle I spoke of in my first post was the most accurate rifle I've ever owned...and I've owned too many. Unfortunately, it would not stabilize the heavier bullets for continued LR shooting. I did consider a barrel change. Also considered other cartridge options. After a LOT of study...based on the MANY good references...have moved to the 6.5 Creed. No need to express why...all the advantages are well known. The scope is now a Zeiss S3 - FFP - MIL. Much more learning ahead.

Will be posting updates. Shoots100 has already offered good advice on my Coyote hunting with this cartridge.

Thank you again.

[Iowa Fox]

These are just comments from me to myself. The 243 is a good cartridge to 1K. If my memory is correct John Whidden who could have chosen any cartridge used a 243 to win a lot of long range matches. I used a 243 for 3 years. The things that helped me the most were a good ballistic app program, chronograph, good FFP scope, good rings, good reloading equip, a good spotter, lots of practice practice practice, and the number one thing wind reading skills. Shooters are a good bunch of folks and the experienced winners are always willing the help another shooter. On my second 243 barrel I did go with a 7.5 twist for the 107SMK's.

[Taidog1]

These are just comments from me to myself. The 243 is a good cartridge to 1K. If my memory is correct John Whidden who could have chosen any cartridge used a 243 to win a lot of long range matches. I used a 243 for 3 years. The things that helped me the most were a good ballistic app program, chronograph, good FFP scope, good rings, good reloading equip, a good spotter, lots of practice practice practice, and the number one thing wind reading skills. Shooters are a good bunch of folks and the experienced winners are always willing the help another shooter. On my second 243 barrel I did go with a 7.5 twist for the 107SMK's.

Well said Iowa. Lot of truth in your comments. For LR target work, I've moved over to the 6.5 Creed for all the well known reasons. Thanks for your post.

[South Prairie jim]

To all...

Thank you responding. Really do appreciate being here.

This is just an update, nothing more.

The rifle I spoke of in my first post was the most accurate rifle I've ever owned...and I've owned too many. Unfortunately, it would not stabilize the heavier bullets for continued LR shooting. I did consider a barrel change. Also considered other cartridge options. After a LOT of study...based on the MANY good references...have moved to the 6.5 Creed. No need to express why...all the advantages are well known. The scope is now a Zeiss S3 - FFP - MIL. Much more learning ahead.

Will be posting updates. Shoots100 has already offered good advice on my Coyote hunting with this cartridge.

Thank you again.

Good selection. Congratulations bro enjoy the ride.

[Taidog1]

Good selection. Congratulations bro enjoy the ride.

I plan on doing just that Jim. Thanks.