Invasions and Gunsmithing

[LDSILLS]

Since I have been on the internet for some 80 hours or more now putting together ideas for my Savage 12BSS upgrade/build. In my times of reflection two things is perfectly clear.

First, I feel sorry for any country, person, or government that tries to invade or takeover the USA. There is a slug of law abiding, respectful and very knowledgeable shooters out there. With 99% of them very accurate with their tools of the trade that I bet would participate in defending our flag if called upon.

I am pleased to say that the 2nd amendment is very much alive.

Second, there a need for more skilled gunsmiths out there and even gun manufacturers. If any one on here has high school aged children that would like to learn a trade that indeed would pay very well in a few short years. All with just a few courses in using CNC, Metal Lathes and End Mills: GUNSMITHING is that trade. One I believe would last a lifetime. Don't believe me? Luke Horak of Arrowhead Rifles worked with me at a government manufacturing business decades years ago for a summer engineering internship later hired on as an engineer full time. I would like to think Luke and I became good friends.Luke his spare time began Arrowhead Rifles with the help of his parents managing shipments I believe. He has long left a engineers desk and working for someone. Now he is a premier long distance muzzleloader and rifle builder in AZ. His business continues to grow and grow. Selling his wares to famous people like Donald Trump Jr. Luke is not 40 yet I believe.

Gunsmithing is a physically active endeavour, but yet not much heavy lifting at all. Best thing is it will challenge your brain, and with today's internet calculators, not overload it with math.

Thanks for reading this mature mans blab,

Best Regards,

Larry

[J.Baker]

Agree 1000%, but like most skilled trades it's been an uphill battle to get kids interested in them. Fortunately between the college's crazy tuition hikes over the last 10-15 years and trade-based organizations like Mike Rowe Works (ala Dirty Jobs tv show) promoting the trades and offering scholarships to those seeking to go into the trades the tide is turning - ever so slowly, but it's turning. Even so, the vast majority of those interested in going into the trades probably never even consider gunsmithing. There do seem to be more schools offering programs these days, but whether they're quality programs or not is anyone's guess.

The other issue is how we define precisely what a gunsmith is. Every Gander Mountain store had a gunsmith, but they didn't really do anything other than mount scopes for customers and maybe do a Cerakote job here and there. Then there are the ones who have a full machine shop and know how to use said machines (lathes, mills, etc.) and have the knowledge and skill set to make or repair most anything related to a firearm. That's a pretty big difference in the level of work, yet both are technically gunsmiths. There's actually no training requirement to be a gunsmith. No required certificate or apprenticeship program, no degree, not even a basic knowledge test. The only thing one "technically" needs to have to be a gunsmith and engage in the business of gunsmithing is a Type 01 FFL license which is the same as a standard (non-NFA) dealers license.

[LDSILLS]

Agree 1000%, but like most skilled trades it's been an uphill battle to get kids interested in them. Fortunately between the college's crazy tuition hikes over the last 10-15 years and trade-based organizations like Mike Rowe Works (ala Dirty Jobs tv show) promoting the trades and offering scholarships to those seeking to go into the trades the tide is turning - ever so slowly, but it's turning. Even so, the vast majority of those interested in going into the trades probably never even consider gunsmithing. There do seem to be more schools offering programs these days, but whether they're quality programs or not is anyone's guess.

The other issue is how we define precisely what a gunsmith is. Every Gander Mountain store had a gunsmith, but they didn't really do anything other than mount scopes for customers and maybe do a Cerakote job here and there. Then there are the ones who have a full machine shop and know how to use said machines (lathes, mills, etc.) and have the knowledge and skill set to make or repair most anything related to a firearm. That's a pretty big difference in the level of work, yet both are technically gunsmiths. There's actually no training requirement to be a gunsmith. No required certificate or apprenticeship program, no degree, not even a basic knowledge test. The only thing one "technically" needs to have to be a gunsmith and engage in the business of gunsmithing is a Type 01 FFL license which is the same as a standard (non-NFA) dealers license.

Mr. Baker,

What you wrote is very correct. So let me pose this question? I wonder if any of the barrel makers, gun manufacturers etc. would offer an apprenticeship program. I know first hand large aerospace companies offer to pay for college with an agreement after graduation the candidate agrees to be employed with them for an x number of years. I see online that machinist schools for various machines is as low as state tuition cost of $1400 to a full non state resident program of $10,000. Imagine firearm manufacturers and large gunsmith operations doing the same as the aerospace industry. Pretty small investment and what a great way for the apprentice to get a start in gunsmithing.

Thank you all,

Larry

[Blue Avenger]

Hard for a one man shop to pay someone to learn a job and then have them leave for better pay. A large operation would expect you to have basic skills learned so they have someone they think is trainable. There are a few schools around with gunsmith programs.

[Dave Hoback]

I’d say G’smithing is only viable for those who wish to gamble on starting their own business. Many more fail within one to a couple years, than actually become successful on their own. And as was said, what is the litmus test here? Would you want to be the guy installing sights & scopes, and thinks they are knowledgeable? (Most of us have met one of those guys in the gun stores & such.) Or to be a full scale, fix everything, modify & build firearms kind? Which, to be one of those, you would need your own place. There are also more guys in the 21st century like Me & some others here, who have learned to diagnose, repair, modify & build Firearms themselves, but have never worked in a professional capacity. It’s really not difficult. Anyone handy can learn machining, and to use a Mill & Lathe. And oh how the working Smiffs utterly HATE us! Now learning machining is a completely different topic. That is a viable Trade. This is what I would encourage a person interested in Gunsmithing to learn. Go the machining route. There are many trade schools to learn regular Mill/Lathe work, as well as 5 axis or better, CNC programming & machining. As well as learning to use Surface Grinders, Shapers, Power Hammers & more. With a learned trade as that any large machine shop, as well as any of the large Firearms makers would hire you in a heartbeat. You want to work for Savage Arms, Remington, Glock, Wilson Combat… even FN? Or perhaps a Barrel maker? Go for it. Not as gun Smiff, but an actual professional machinist. Then if you want, learn a niche market in guns and open your own shop, do that at some point. But if my son was talking about apprenticeship under Joe Schmoe Gun works, to spend 5 years learning to chamber a barrel, & time S&W Model 27/28’s, I’d convince him him to do the prior that I spoke of.

[J.Baker]

Have to agree with Dave to a great degree. If one were wanting to go to school for something to help them get into the manufacturing side of the gun industry, CNC operator/programming would be at the top of the list as EVERYONE in the industry needs CNC operators and programmers as that's how most everything is made now. My second option to recommend would be a tool and die maker for pretty much the same reason. The CNC guy learns to use those machines that make the parts, whereas the tool and die maker learns how to make the stuff that makes or holds the parts in those CNC machines - i.e. fixtures, multi-cavity stock molds, MIM injection molds, stamping dies, etc.

Conversely, for gunsmithing you'll rarely if ever find one who has a fancy CNC mill or lathe in their shop simply because they're way too expensive for a small shop to justify. Such shops will have good old manual machines and they'll have learned to do things the old-fashioned way of turning dials like their grandpappy did back in the great war. The only ones who will venture into a fairly simple CNC machine (which will still run them a good $50-100k) are those who want to get into production. Eric Cortina is a perfect example of this with his brakes and tuners. He has a small fortune invested in one machine to make what are essentially a couple very simple component parts.

[LDSILLS]

Great conversations. Thanks to all!

I will add my last comment. You see I was looking to do some firing pin work and bush the Firing Pin Hole. Decided to go with one of the best for this work. Greg Tannel of "Gre-Tan Rifles". That is not going to happen unfortunately. Here's the message on his webpage:

We are NOT accepting any new Firearm or repair work at this time.
We apologize, your business is very important and appreciated. But our shop is overwhelmed. We will repost when we are taking work again.
Thank you for considering us! We are sorry for the inconvenience. You can still order our products online, through this website.

[J.Baker]

How do you know when you find a good gunsmith? He/she tells you there's a long waiting list for his/her work.

[Mr65]

What Dave said and I will add--

I guess it depends on two things, what part of the country you live in and what you consider a "good" living. Here in South Carolina you would do well to scratch out a meager living as a gunsmith, just not enough work, if you had lots to invest initially you could do well in retail gun sales but what youngster does?.
Custom work is what brings in the dollars and there is so much competition for that work now. Also few people are willing or can afford to pay the prices for a quality gunsmiths work.
My son wanted to be a gunsmith and I talked him out of it. While I myself was a manufacturer and custom builder years ago and still maintain a full machine shop, I am no longer in the business except for myself. I asked my son what he wanted to make and he looked at me and said dad I want to make the kind of money you make, I sadly told him to follow a IT career path. Keep the gunsmith as a hobby and go make some real money.
I imagine if we lived out west there would be a much bigger market and possibilities but sadly not here in the south. Sure there is the occasional big money guy wanting something but not enough to sustain a 6 figure income for a new comer.
I know some very talented gunsmiths who barely scrape by around here, I mean old school skills, but yet they barley survive.

[Dave Hoback]

Great conversations. Thanks to all!

I will add my last comment. You see I was looking to do some firing pin work and bush the Firing Pin Hole. Decided to go with one of the best for this work. Greg Tannel of "Gre-Tan Rifles". That is not going to happen unfortunately. Here's the message on his webpage:

We are NOT accepting any new Firearm or repair work at this time.
We apologize, your business is very important and appreciated. But our shop is overwhelmed. We will repost when we are taking work again.
Thank you for considering us! We are sorry for the inconvenience. You can still order our products online, through this website.

Contact Desh. His Bush’d Bolts are top notch! https://deshind.com/boltbushing/

[Dave Hoback]

Yeah, the only way most Gun Smiths survive is by perfecting something in a niche market, and having a .com online. Forget 1911’s & AR15’s. The market is utterly saturated. The guys making money, like was said, are doing custom work.

[pdog06]

My local gunsmith that I’ve used for a long while retired last year. So in the last couple months I’ve been searching and reviewing different places somewhat local to me.

Found a guy 45min from me that was booked 3-4months out for any work and has been in business for quite a few years, so no doubt he is probably a good smith.
But then I found one 3 miles from my work that just opened during Covid and I didn’t know it. He was working as a smith at a gun shop and they shut down for covid, so he rented out a pole barn shop and opened his own gunsmithing business. Went there last month to talk to him. Just a nice guy trying to make it on his own and build a business. And he is about 35 years old so he if he makes it he will be around a while. So the next day I dropped off a barrel to him to thread the muzzle. He told me it would be a week or so. Then 2 days later it was done.

Like Jim said above, usually a good gunsmith will be backlogged. But also supporting the newcomers to the business is vital to the future of our hobby and the gunsmithing trade.

[J.Baker]

Definitely need to find a niche` market to focus on and serve if you want to be successful in this day and age. Could be doing custom hardwood stocks, building custom varmint rifles, match rifles or competition handguns, or manufacturing small specialty parts for particular guns. Finding a good niche can be hard though as you need to find the small voids in the existing market that aren't being met, figure out what exactly those in that niche are wanting, and then you have to develop that/those products and figure out a way to produce them at a price that will both provide you with a sufficient profit and still be considered a good value to the customer to get them to purchase it.