Reply With Quotenormally trigger not set properly
On another forum a member posted about a Rem 700 possibly firing with bolt not fully closed.
"It’s REM 700 and what I think happened is the bolt was not shut all the way."
this of course has created a "discussion".
Is this a concern with the Savage action?
Not to create a long heated discussion, but what's the likelihood of this happening?
Freeze this thread if it gets out of hand.
normally trigger not set properly
.223 Rem AI, .22-250 AI, .220 Swift AI .243 Win AI, .6mm Rem AI, .257 Rob AI, .25-06 AI, 6.5x300wsm .30-06 AI, .270 STW, 7mm STW, 28 nosler, .416 Taylor
I don’t believe it’s possible for the Savage to fire out of battery. Though I’m not positive. I would have to go look at it.
Most on that other forum didn't think the 700 would either.
They got into a good argument/discussion blaming everything.
With the Savage partial engagement of the lugs would prevent anything drastic from happening, and the cocking ramp will close the bolt for you and maybe have enough force to pop the round.
Keeping my (the wife's) safety blade and staying away from pull weights of a few ounces.
Doubtful.
Well, just look at the 110’s operation. The firing pin cannot fall until the bolt is rotated almost all the way (thus having near full lug lockup), giving the hand off of the Cocking Piece Pin from the Bolt Shelf to the Sear/Bolt Release.
Yeah I saw that same thread. I too do not think it can happen with a Savage.
I also don’t think that’s what happened to that guys Remington but we will probably never know. The bolt didn’t come back and smack him in the face. The bullet hit the same POI as his other normal rounds but were 150fps slower. The brass was fine. The only damage was a blown primer(blown out of the primer pocket) and a messed up bolt head. Not to mention his gunsmith thinks there was a barrel blockage(even though the bullet POI was good on target)?
I haven’t seen the thread yous are speaking of. Where was it?
Edit: Nevermind, I found it. After reading, what the guy is saying is nonsense. He simply had the same problem as when a trigger is way too light and the bolt is slammed home. Wouldn’t surprise me if he had a back job done on his trigger. But the problem was not firing out of lug engagement. That can’t happen as I had previously thought. The gun had a firing pin follow the bolt closing. In other words, the Sear let go. And I doubt it happened while it on safe. Think he’s remembering it wrong, or simply telling it wrong.
Or, he pulled the trigger and has the need to confess it happened, but is covering up his error. And before anyone thinks that doesn’t happen, there is a BONAFIDE need for many individuals who are involved in a negligent discharge, to confess it happened. I’ve come across several who flat out tell the tale 100%! But others, while needing to tell the firearm discharged, still can’t face their own stupidity. So they lie. Make it be the Guns fault!
So the Remington 700 cocking ramp will not restrict firing pin fall but the ramp on the savage will?
The Dunning-Kruger effect is alive and well.
Savage;
Get the cocking pin over the NOTCH pull the trigger and the spring loaded cocking pin will complete the bolt closure and let the pin down easy.
How easy?
From what I read on that other forum, the Rem spring loaded pin will also complete the partial rotation if the trigger is pulled.
Seem to remember that way back in the late 80's early 90's Remington has an issue with a new trigger in the Model 700 that was causing a lot of slam fires and there was an eventual recall. Again do not recall the exact timing or the details.
Yes, there were trigger problems at some point. But there are two distinctly different issues being discussed which are not inherently interconnected. Whether a rifle can fire while out of battery (lugs not seated), and the issue of slam firing or firing pin/striker following the bolt. Like what happens to an Accutrigger when set too light, although it has the safety blade to stop it. Also a danger when any trigger is super light, or has a worn Trigger or Sear mating surfaces.
Just want it to be clear for those who may not completely understand.
I understand this issue as different though agree some may not.Originally Posted by Dave Hoback
Then even though I have not witnessed it the range that I work PT as an RO has accident reports of a couple of AR's that fired out of battery and destroyed the rifles have been recorded.. Not sure I understand how that cold happen with a bolt rifle.
Dave I believe it was you that helped me with my rifle after I replaced the trigger spring in my Model 11 and had it too light and was dropping the sear upon closing the bolt.
Oh yeah, that wasn’t directed towards you KM.. I read all your posts and know you get it.
I’m glad if I was able to help you at some point. To help other shooters I can, pass on things I’ve learned & the of comradery/online friendships with other enthusiasts.
The AR can fire out of battery because it has a floating firing pin. It happens when the pin gets stuck forward. Usually because of a very dirty, gummed up BCG assembly. With the pin stuck forward, if the round being chambered meets any resistance before, or even just as the shoulder meets the chamber, it’s KABOOM time! Years ago I was a manager RO of a large indoor range. And I saw more than one of these. Can usually tell the difference between over-pressure/bullet setback KABOOM and one caused by firing out of battery. An over pressure or bullet setback failure usually impacts the barrel. Blows the Flashhider off, splits the barrel. Catastrophic. Firing out of battery typically impacts the Upper/Lower receivers more times. Blows the magazine out, shoots the charging handle back(sometimes hitting the shooter),or pops the upper lower apart. And then there are times it doesn’t do any damage. Ejects the magazine with no harm done. I’ve seen that a couple times & catastrophic a couple. Never involved me thank The LORD.
Didn't read it that way either Dave! Just concurring. All is good as Bullseyes!
I've looked over my Savage Model 10 bolt and Pin Fall with partially open bolt will STRIKE the Cocking Ramp, and rotate the bolt full CLOSED due to spring force. Spring resists cocking, but feeds back when dropped on a partial bolt closure.
The pin will end up fully protruded, but the impact force will be absorbed by the Cocking Pin hitting the Ramp. Probably not good for the ramp.
What will happen with most of the impact absorbed BEFORE the pin 'Touches' the PRIMER?
Here is a crude image of what happens.
The RED line is the path the cocking pin makes with a partially open bolt.
The Bolt head lugs will be partially engaged when the Cocking Pin is lifted from the cocked position, held by the Bolt Body, and transferred to being held by the Sear. The closer the bolt is to full closure, the Cocking PIN will strike farther down the ramp.
I think I got this right:)
Experts check my 'math' :)
Looks about right to me. And as a result the rifle won’t fire while the bolt is open. Ultimately, it would be a slam fire if it fired at all. And we all know Slam Fires happen all the time.
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