Firing pin, springs, FTF.

[South Prairie jim]

Understand. Everyone is, all have suggestion but no solutions. As stated every primer pocket was uniformed and depth measured. Primers also measured and seated accordingly. Another friend of ours from THR spent a couple weeks with me trying to sort this out after this issue developed while working up a load he was helping me evaluate. Once again I came here to ask about firing pin springs as I have not experienced that yet and he doesn't shoot Savages.

ok so if the primers are fully seated and we rarely see any difficulty firing cases with created headspace up to .015 then we must have an ignition issue as Sharpshooter mentioned. I don’t recall if you’ve replaced or altered any parts but there’s really no down side to new FP and springs.

[KMW1954]

After stepping back, taking a pause then looking again at this issue and recent events one thing I see stand out. The last two loading of this same load were all done with Norma and PMC brass. This was a total of 45 rounds. Every one fired. This Norma brass I have been loading and shooting for over a year or about 4 reload cycles. Never had an issue with failure to fire using it. This PMC is brass that is once fired, once reloaded and never fired in this rifle. Again all 20 of these fired. I have reloaded and fired PMC brass extensively prior to this and again never had an issue. It has recently struck me that all these firing issues has only started since I started with this Hornady brass which is also when I switched to the Hornady VMAX bullets..

This Hornady brass, 200 pieces, was all started and processed at one time as once fired brass. 100+pcs were loaded and fired in this rifle to start a fire form. After the first reloading/firing it was all processed again as one lot with the intention of using this brass for my league loads. This brass was then meticulously processed to start load development for this league. This was also the beginning of the failure issue. This brass was then processed again and the second loading saw an increase of the problem. Then another 25pcs was loaded for a second time and this group had a 50% failure rate. The FTF from the prior session is what I fired in the model 10 of which 50% of that did fire in the second rifle.

So now all that Hornady brass has been set aside because I just do not have time left to deal with it. I now have just three shooting days left to get a load developed with these VMAX of resort back to the 69gr SMK that I shot last year.

With that I would like to thank everyone for the help and sorry this issue is left unresolved.

[shoots100]

With that I would like to thank everyone for the help and sorry this issue is left unresolved.

Thanks for the update.
The issue isn't unresolved.
When you used quality brass the FTF issue went away.
The crappy Hornady brass was the issue.
Good luck at the match and Happy New Year.

SJC

[South Prairie jim]

Thanks for the update.
The issue isn't unresolved.
When you used quality brass the FTF issue went away.
The crappy Hornady brass was the issue.
Good luck at the match and Happy New Year.

SJC

I’ve never had a problem with Hornday brass and I have my doubts that is the sole issue. Meticulously processed brass shouldn’t have issues if meticulously processed, it’s just a case with a seated primer and powder, as long as the flash hole is clear with a solid strike it will go bang every time. I’ve also never entered a season with a fully developed load, I’ve been close and know my nodes but still tinker from match to match.

[KMW1954]

I’ve never had a problem with Hornday brass and I have my doubts that is the sole issue. Meticulously processed brass shouldn’t have issues if meticulously processed, it’s just a case with a seated primer and powder, as long as the flash hole is clear with a solid strike it will go bang every time. I’ve also never entered a season with a fully developed load, I’ve been close and know my nodes but still tinker from match to match.

1. This is my very first experience using Hornady brass so I have nothing to base a judgement on. Though I have read many mixed reviews.
2. No Meticulously processed brass should not behave such as this. Yet it did and the pcs. that did not fire all looked like light strikes. So here I have to agree. More going on than just the brass.
3. After fire forming and processing to start load development I never got through a complete session of testing because of the FTF issues. So would not try to draw any conclusions from these failed test firings.

[South Prairie jim]

1. This is my very first experience using Hornady brass so I have nothing to base a judgement on. Though I have read many mixed reviews.
2. No Meticulously processed brass should not behave such as this. Yet it did and the pcs. that did not fire all looked like light strikes. So here I have to agree. More going on than just the brass.
3. After fire forming and processing to start load development I never got through a complete session of testing because of the FTF issues. So would not try to draw any conclusions from these failed test firings.

Are you fire forming cases using a light powder charge or the full recipe ?

[KMW1954]

Are you fire forming cases using a light powder charge or the full recipe ?

Full charge of TAC with cheap FMJ bullets. When I state a full charge I am refering to the charge that would normally be used in the reload. Also aware it normally take two firing to get really good formed brass. Also before I start I measure every piece with the comparator and any and all cases that are shorter than target length get culled out. That is done just to shorten the process. But honestly I have not really seen much change from once fired in this rifle to twice fired.

[shoots100]

1. This is my very first experience using Hornady brass so I have nothing to base a judgement on. Though I have read many mixed reviews.
2. No Meticulously processed brass should not behave such as this. Yet it did and the pcs. that did not fire all looked like light strikes. So here I have to agree. More going on than just the brass.
3. After fire forming and processing to start load development I never got through a complete session of testing because of the FTF issues. So would not try to draw any conclusions from these failed test firings.

So the issue stops when you change brass, You never had FTF issue's before using Hornady brass, your FTF issues stopped after switching brass, but the brass isn't the issue and there's more going on ?
Hornady brass sucks and it sucks even more when you reload it, as you found out, but aren't acknowledging that something so simple could be the reason for the FTF's.
How many in competition reload with Hornady brass ?
It's still a pig no matter how much lipstick you put on it.
Use quality brass that has been proven to work, especially for match use.
You won't be posting about FTF issues, you'll be posting about how boringly accurate and reliable your rifle is.


SJC

[South Prairie jim]

Full charge of TAC with cheap FMJ bullets. When I state a full charge I am refering to the charge that would normally be used in the reload. Also aware it normally take two firing to get really good formed brass. Also before I start I measure every piece with the comparator and any and all cases that are shorter than target length get culled out. That is done just to shorten the process. But honestly I have not really seen much change from once fired in this rifle to twice fired.

You probably won’t see much difference on the target, lots of guys just load straight out of the box.( I know nbrsa long range champion that does) And I somewhat disagree with the post regarding Hornday brass being of poor quality. Case capacity from manufacture can vary changing internal pressure, case rim thickness can vary changing primer seating depth by very small numbers ( maybe undetectable) as well as case neck thickness can differ from others causing big differences in bullet hold/ neck tension that are easily seen on paper. But just brand name poo poo is questionable.
Q: if Hornday brass is so bad then why does Hornday factory long range creedmoor ammunition shoot so wel ?
I don’t mean to be argumentative, i think we’re just talking around the campfire sharing thoughts.

[KMW1954]

So the issue stops when you change brass, You never had FTF issue's before using Hornady brass, your FTF issues stopped after switching brass, but the brass isn't the issue and there's more going on ?SJC

Not sure why I am following this argument. Whereby my own conclusion the brass is an issue which is why it was put aside. Yet that does not explain the light strikes that are happening randomly. All I plainly stated is that there is more at fault than just this brass and no I do not believe it is the primers.

Yes this rifle has had primer issues in the past. When I first started loading for it I was using CCI400 primers until I started getting pierced primers with light beginning loads. Which I was informed here is a known issue because of the bolt head and primer pin. Switching to CCI450 eliminated that though I still see signs of cratering around the pin indent.

[sharpshooter]

Ok......I'll say it for the last time. While everyone has been side tracked by the mysterious shrinking case phenomenon, you have failed to address the lack of impact energy problem. Yes, it is there, that is the reason your problem is intermittent. The impact energy provided by that particular set up is "riding the fence" so to speak in terms of energy. When you get pierced primers from starting loads, or cratered primers, it is a sign of insufficient spring pressure on the firing pin in the fired position. With a lack of spring tension on the pin, there is less support in the "dimple " you just created, and subsequently when the charge detonates and creates 60K psi, it pushes the dimple back, either leaving a crater, or blanking it completely.

The reason you have FTF is because you still have a lacking on the front end. It can be caused by a few things, such as lack of travel or lack of spring energy. Lack of travel is the culprit 98% of the time. Lack of travel can be caused by: pin assembly out of adjustment,or (no adjust ability in your case ) decocking...in most cases about .040", too much protrusion, and trigger timing.
The biggest down fall of the one pc. FP assembly is there is no adjustment. The other problem is the spring is bare minimum. That is why I suggested a old style multi piece firing pin assembly.

I have studied ignition for over 20 years, and I have done lots of R&D and conducted scientific experiments on several other rifles besides Savage models. In those studies, I have developed a formula that will insure optimum ignition. It's very simple calculation of force X travel. You need a minimum factor of 4.0 and max of 5.8. Just from records and notes, the average specs for your model will put you in the 3.5 range......you don't have enough!

[Dave Hoback]

Ok......I'll say it for the last time. While everyone has been side tracked by the mysterious shrinking case phenomenon, you have failed to address the lack of impact energy problem. Yes, it is there, that is the reason your problem is intermittent. The impact energy provided by that particular set up is "riding the fence" so to speak in terms of energy. When you get pierced primers from starting loads, or cratered primers, it is a sign of insufficient spring pressure on the firing pin in the fired position. With a lack of spring tension on the pin, there is less support in the "dimple " you just created, and subsequently when the charge detonates and creates 60K psi, it pushes the dimple back, either leaving a crater, or blanking it completely.

The reason you have FTF is because you still have a lacking on the front end. It can be caused by a few things, such as lack of travel or lack of spring energy. Lack of travel is the culprit 98% of the time. Lack of travel can be caused by: pin assembly out of adjustment,or (no adjust ability in your case ) decocking...in most cases about .040", too much protrusion, and trigger timing.
The biggest down fall of the one pc. FP assembly is there is no adjustment. The other problem is the spring is bare minimum. That is why I suggested a old style multi piece firing pin assembly.

I have studied ignition for over 20 years, and I have done lots of R&D and conducted scientific experiments on several other rifles besides Savage models. In those studies, I have developed a formula that will insure optimum ignition. It's very simple calculation of force X travel. You need a minimum factor of 4.0 and max of 5.8. Just from records and notes, the average specs for your model will put you in the 3.5 range......you don't have enough!

Why do you think I stopped replying? You’re not the only one.

[KMW1954]

Ok......I'll say it for the last time. While everyone has been side tracked by the mysterious shrinking case phenomenon, you have failed to address the lack of impact energy problem. Yes, it is there, that is the reason your problem is intermittent.

1st I do not dispute what you are saying, as a matter of fact that is exactly why I brought this here to this forum and asked the question to begin with. Because I was looking for answers to the pin/spring question because I do not have the experience to diagnose or even identify it. As I also stated at the beginning that I believed it to be a cause of the issue. I kind of wish you would have explained this exactly this way from the beginning. Might have saved my hard head some long headaches.

I will also admit that yes I too was distracted by this brass and wondered if that could be causing a headspace issue and contributing to the problem. Again, like everyone else I have never seen this happen before and could not understand how this could be happening. I also will admit that I did not want to install those new parts being uncertain it would work.

I do appreciate you taking the time and breaking down this explanation, Not that I fully understand it but it does make sense now.

Unfortunately I am out of time and cannot obtain all the parts to convert this to the old style pin assembly. We start shooting league one week from Sunday. Though I will replace these springs with what I now have.

[South Prairie jim]

1st I do not dispute what you are saying, as a matter of fact that is exactly why I brought this here to this forum and asked the question to begin with. Because I was looking for answers to the pin/spring question because I do not have the experience to diagnose or even identify it. As I also stated at the beginning that I believed it to be a cause of the issue. I kind of wish you would have explained this exactly this way from the beginning. Might have saved my hard head some long headaches.

I will also admit that yes I too was distracted by this brass and wondered if that could be causing a headspace issue and contributing to the problem. Again, like everyone else I have never seen this happen before and could not understand how this could be happening. I also will admit that I did not want to install those new parts being uncertain it would work.

I do appreciate you taking the time and breaking down this explanation, Not that I fully understand it but it does make sense now.

Unfortunately I am out of time and cannot obtain all the parts to convert this to the old style pin assembly. We start shooting league one week from Sunday. Though I will replace these springs with what I now have.

You should make time, weak ignition causes accuracy issues. I believe Shapeshooter is correct.

[KMW1954]

Was able to make it to the range today. Shot a number of different loads at 100 yards hoping to fine one that will work for the first weeks league shot. Think I found one.
Also shot a total of 70 rounds with not one single failure.



60gr VMAX with TAC, seated to 1.885" BTO with Remington 71/2 primers. 5 shots ea. round robin



60gr VMAX with Benchmark, seated to 1.885" BTO and Remington primers. 5 shots ea. round robin
Center row black are 2 ea. of this same setup that were loaded with A2460. The two black within the red circle are 10 rounds of cheap 62gr Hornady HPBT that I was getting from MidSouth but haven't seen any for 2 years.

Thanks all!

[charlie b]

Congratulations. Glad it is starting to come together.

[Nor Cal Mikie]

"Broken record" on my part BUT, IMHO, .005 to .007 shoulder bump is too much. Case gets pushed forward in the chamber by the firing pin and you get FTF!! Nuf said from me.
Happy New Year.

[South Prairie jim]

Was able to make it to the range today. Shot a number of different loads at 100 yards hoping to fine one that will work for the first weeks league shot. Think I found one.
Also shot a total of 70 rounds with not one single failure.



60gr VMAX with TAC, seated to 1.885" BTO with Remington 71/2 primers. 5 shots ea. round robin



60gr VMAX with Benchmark, seated to 1.885" BTO and Remington primers. 5 shots ea. round robin
Center row black are 2 ea. of this same setup that were loaded with A2460. The two black within the red circle are 10 rounds of cheap 62gr Hornady HPBT that I was getting from MidSouth but haven't seen any for 2 years.

Thanks all!

The rifle seems to exhibit 20% fliers, is this fairly common for your set up or something new ?

[KMW1954]

I believe a small amount is the rifle but most I admit falls back on me. In actuality switching to this 60gr bullet has made a measurable improvement over the 69gr bullets I was shooting last year. Plus some of what we see is me and rust. I have really not had the opportunity to shoot nearly as much this year as the past couple years. As it is now I am only able to shoot one day per week because the range has changed to winter schedule and when I am there working I've been having to work the 25yd pistol range. Last year I was shooting probably 3 days each week.

[sharpshooter]

The fliers are a sign of inconsistent ignition.

[South Prairie jim]

The fliers are a sign of inconsistent ignition.

Thats what I’ve experienced as well.

[South Prairie jim]

I believe a small amount is the rifle but most I admit falls back on me. In actuality switching to this 60gr bullet has made a measurable improvement over the 69gr bullets I was shooting last year. Plus some of what we see is me and rust. I have really not had the opportunity to shoot nearly as much this year as the past couple years. As it is now I am only able to shoot one day per week because the range has changed to winter schedule and when I am there working I've been having to work the 25yd pistol range. Last year I was shooting probably 3 days each week.

Do you set up wind flags when your tuning a load ? These are really important when evaluating targets.

[shoots100]

Also shot a total of 70 rounds with not one single failure.
Thanks all!

Great news, Have fun at the match and Happy New Year

SJC

[KMW1954]

Great news, Have fun at the match and Happy New Year

SJC

League starts week from today. Only have one more day to practice and get load dope.

Safe and Merry New/Next Year to All!

[Robinhood]

Ok......I'll say it for the last time. While everyone has been side tracked by the mysterious shrinking case phenomenon, you have failed to address the lack of impact energy problem. Yes, it is there, that is the reason your problem is intermittent. The impact energy provided by that particular set up is "riding the fence" so to speak in terms of energy. When you get pierced primers from starting loads, or cratered primers, it is a sign of insufficient spring pressure on the firing pin in the fired position. With a lack of spring tension on the pin, there is less support in the "dimple " you just created, and subsequently when the charge detonates and creates 60K psi, it pushes the dimple back, either leaving a crater, or blanking it completely.

The reason you have FTF is because you still have a lacking on the front end. It can be caused by a few things, such as lack of travel or lack of spring energy. Lack of travel is the culprit 98% of the time. Lack of travel can be caused by: pin assembly out of adjustment,or (no adjust ability in your case ) decocking...in most cases about .040", too much protrusion, and trigger timing.
The biggest down fall of the one pc. FP assembly is there is no adjustment. The other problem is the spring is bare minimum. That is why I suggested a old style multi piece firing pin assembly.

I have studied ignition for over 20 years, and I have done lots of R&D and conducted scientific experiments on several other rifles besides Savage models. In those studies, I have developed a formula that will insure optimum ignition. It's very simple calculation of force X travel. You need a minimum factor of 4.0 and max of 5.8. Just from records and notes, the average specs for your model will put you in the 3.5 range......you don't have enough!

Fred or Dave question

Outside of ensuring smooth motion, insuring maximum or optimum firing pin travel and measuring spring force, how does one know if their setup falls between the factor of 4.0 and 5.8 that is prescribed. If that info is proprietary, I get it. For many of us trying to put conservation of momentum or coefficient of restitution(or whatever theory was used) to the topic, tweaks my/our minds.