Sometimes you need to wake people up with constructive criticism.Originally Posted by Dave Hoback
Now, now shootsWhile I think perhaps something is being overlooked(we all do it from time to time), KMW has been loading 223 in his Savages for several years. I certainly do not doubt his understanding & ability in measuring. I know it’s meant to be funny…but, maybe simmer down on the condescending remarks? I mean… it is Christmas
Your going to get that criticism when you come on a forum asking for help, sparingly give out info and get snarky with the advice given to help remedy the issue.
When your car has a flat tire, you don't change the oil to fix it.
Clearly there's an issue in the reloading process, yet the OP thinks the firing pin is the issue, even after chasing that "non issue" down the rabbit hole.
I hope he finds the cause of the issue and is truthful in letting us know how he/they remedied the issue.
Merry Christmas,
SJC
You call this constructive criticism. I call it something I cannot print here. Everything you have suggested has already been tried previous to me posting here. So take your over rated opinion and keep it. I certainly do NOT NEED, Want or Deserve the Attitude for some WWW Warrior. I am just posting the results of what I find you don't like it or believe to well too bad for you!
There certainly is no answer to be gotten here from this group only ridicule so I an done with this topic.
Most everyone was trying to be helpful.
Nine different ways to Sunday to fix a firing pin issue, when it may not be a pin problem.
What ever you do to find the issue stay safe and I for one would like to hear the final outcome.
Well, that’s certainly an undeserved blanket statement, with a side of ungratefulness towards another member who stuck up for you.
And after I JUST went to bat for you! Was in your corner. And as Rocket pointed out, pretty much everyone was taking it serious & trying to help.. Only one comment was out of line. Again, being in your corner, I immediately called out as distasteful. But I was pleasant in rebuke as I am fond of both you & he.
Dave I fully understand and I do appreciate the help and suggestions. Everything I have posted in this thread is factual and I have notes, pictures and actual items pertaining to this sitting right in front of me. Yet I have pretty much been called an idiot and a liar. Again just aggravated with this issue and not being able to isolate it. We are supposed to start are winter league in two weeks and as of not I do not have a rifle to shoot.Well, that’s certainly an undeserved blanket statement, with a side of ungratefulness towards another member who stuck up for you.
And after I JUST went to bat for you! Was in your corner. And as Rocket pointed out, pretty much everyone was taking it serious & trying to help.. Only one comment was out of line. Again, being in your corner, I immediately called out as distasteful. But I was pleasant in rebuke as I am fond of both you & he.
I have been fighting this issue for 3 weeks with direct help form a friend and fellow Bench rest shooter that I trust and we together have been through this front and back more than just once. This whole question was poised to ask about the FPA and springs as I have never had to change any yet it drifted to this other issue which I had no intention of bringing up as I knew or suspected where it would lead and it had devolved to exactly that. SO now you all can ponder these.
The first picture is a loaded and unfired round. The second picture is a loaded FTF round.
My Axis 'suddenly' began to show light primer strikes as well, but, only with small rifle primers. A bit of time polishing, new springs, and a preload washer fixed it.
FWIW, shoulder set back is common in the cast bullet world. A variety of reasons for it, but, all involve either a very light load or a failure to ignite the primer or main charge.
Make sure to check the FTF rounds to see if the primer went off or not. There have been quite a few times where I have seen the primer ignite and not set off the main charge properly. When I fired them I could not tell if the primer went off or not (good earplugs I guess).
KMW, I never called nor even so much as insinuated you anything of the sort! And you still have me grouped & others all grouped together as making these comments. I’ve only ever tried my best to answer any question I could. Remember this? https://www.savageshooters.com/showt...tering-primers Who was there from start to finish with you? And even on another Forum altogether, I was patient in trying to help you in a thread you made where so many other members there were attacking you. But did I, even once?
You really need to take note of who’s saying what from post to post my friend.
Dave you are completely correct. My aggravation and frustration at this situation is at ends. No, a few comments did not sit well. I have not and do not makes comments to that degree to anyone on any forum. I do not participate in these forum to be degraded or belittled. Those that do it have an ego problem.
You and I have had instances in the past that we have not agreed upon but we have still respected each other. I still respect and value your opinion. Others not so much.
Now I have also posted actual pictures to illustrate this issue yet no one has a comment or do the pictures lie?
Anyway Have a Merry Christmas. I am going to try and get to the range tomorrow and have to work Fri/Sat.
Man, you sound like a guy that has an issue with shrinking brass.
When you find the remedy, please update.
Merry Christmas.
SJC
.
updated results;
Shot yesterday and finished that problematic box, of which I have not inspected yet but there was a 50+% failure rate. Of the rounds that failed last week they were fired in my model 10 and 50% of those did fire in the Model 10. I also shot 2 other boxes, both with different brass and one of those was loaded with Remington 7 1/2 primers. The other was loaded with PMC brass and the same batch of CCI450 primers as those that did not fire. Of these 50 rounds every one fired.
Merry Christmas All.
So some of them failed in a different rifle as well? That seems to eliminate a rifle issue in my book.
Seeing the pictures, that brass doesnt get shorter by not even being fired. It had to be shorter before you chambered it. But based on those measurements, are ALL of the FTF cases close to the shorter distance? Or are some of them the length of the one that fired? Did you measure the loaded rounds after sizing or before they were chambered? Were they all the same or some king and some short?
I feel until you figure it out, you need to measure before sizing, after sizing, after loading, and after chambering/firing to give you more of a basis to go off of.
Also, I’ve read on other forums of a guy having an issue with FTF with cci450’s in cold weather(20-30’s). Not sure what conditions you were shooting in? Their rifles were not Savages. Atleast 1 was a Tikka. Did it in both rifles. They switched back to cci400 and the issue went away.
I too would like to see what it ends up being. We may all run into this issue one day. It is how we all learn.
I'll say it again.....insufficient impact energy. Those cases could be .015" short and still go off with the correct impact energy.
"As long as there's lead in the air....there's still hope.."
The firing pin falling on a dud primer will easily shorten a shoulder datum measurement by .002-.005", or more. I like to shoot reduced loads in several bolt guns, and in several calibers. Nearly all of these loads (.223 to .338 Win Mag at 1600-1800 fps) will shorten the datums by .003" or sometimes more. There is simply not enough pressure to stretch the brass back to chamber length after the firing pin smacks the case shoulder into the chamber.
So yes, the OP losing datum from a firing pin strike is a real thing.
Even when the pin doesn't dent the primer?
Or a light strike?
Thank you!
So was able to do some quick measurements;
All brass was measured base to datum before loading and after loading to a length of 1.462". Any and all that didn't meet that was culled out.
All fired brass from this lot measured from base to datum, 1.462" - 1.464"
All pcs that FTF measured 1.454" - 1.457"
These are all from the same lot and now have 9 more that did not fire. They too will be fed into the Model 10 to see if they fire.
Well, if it failed to dent the primer at all then I doubt it could shorten the datum. A light strike will still drive the case forward, but maybe not as much. But if the light strike was due to excessive headspace, the case then has enough distance to build up momentum before stopping abruptly at the shoulder, losing datum. Sure, it's not but some few thousandths free motion distance but that firing pin is moving fast.
This is worth repeating.
I’ve never had excess headspace create a FTF
I have no explanation, no solution, just reporting what I am observing.
So then please explain how this issue can be so intermittent. This same rifle just fired 45 rounds w/o a single misfire. Even though I have now purchased a new firing pin, both springs and the tension washer no parts have been changed. I just fired 25 of the same primers, from the same lot, CCI450 and then another 20 Remington 7 1/2.
Do you still have the 'original' ones that still did not fire in the model 10? If so, when you pulled the bullets did you check to see if the primers had gone off?
This is one of those weird problems.
It’s a bit of a head scratcher I’m sure, I’m just reporting that I’ve not shared the same experience, of course without the rifle in front of a person we are just speculating and trying to help. Are you sure the primers were fully seated ?
Understand. Everyone is, all have suggestion but no solutions. As stated every primer pocket was uniformed and depth measured. Primers also measured and seated accordingly. Another friend of ours from THR spent a couple weeks with me trying to sort this out after this issue developed while working up a load he was helping me evaluate. Once again I came here to ask about firing pin springs as I have not experienced that yet and he doesn't shoot Savages.
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