Rifle Bullets at Pistol Velocity

[J A XSP]

I'm hoping to achieve a couple of things with this post: 1) Get some opinions and anecdotes about real-world bullet performance and 2) Generate a discussion about something other than trigger-adjustin' and chest-thumpin'.

I've got some velocity data from my 25-45 (223 necked up) Bullberry barrel and can start to figure out trajectories, etc for various loads. What I'm curious about is how some of the bullets we use in rifle-chambered handguns actually do at lower-than-intended velocities.

I'm getting around 2600 fps from Speer Hot-Cor 87 grainers with very good accuracy (I'll throw in a target pic below just spice up the post). That muzzle velocity isn't too bad but it drops pretty fast at up to 200 yards. Since this bullet (and most that I'm likely to shoot in this chambering) are designed around 250 Savage velocities, are they likely to expand well and perform on medium size game at slower speeds? I've also got a good supply of Speer 100 gr Varminters. I expect that those might be pretty explosive even at lower velocities so might not be a good medium game round.

Another bullet I'm curious about is for my 6.8 SPC. I have a good supply of 130 grain Hornady spire points that shoot very accurately over a full load of Varget but the velocity is pretty slow - in the sub-2400 fps range. For a bullet designed for 270 Winchester speeds, I'm not sure what to expect with that one. The trajectory looks good with that one out to 200 yards but then drops off a fair amount at 300, so realistically, it's a fairly short-yardage round.

So what are some of your results with slow-moving bullets, especially in .257 and .270? I'm sure Bobby Tomek will chime in with some great data concerning bullet performance but most of his work is with carbine-length barrels and somewhat quicker velocity.

Here's the promised pic - 2 fouling rounds and three 3-shot groups from a brand-new 25-45 barrel on a 50 yard 3" target...very promising accuracy. :)

[Prairie Drifter]

Most bullets are designed to expand down to about 1800fps. I had a 11" 250 savage contender that got 2400fps w/ 100gr Nosler ballistic tip that took game out to over 200yds with that particular load. I also had a 270 jdj that got 2300fps w/ a 130gr ballistic tip that took game to 300yds. Now I have hunted w/ the 6.8spc for the last 12 years, taking game cleanly out to 300yds, but using the 11ogr v-max hornady load. I feel that if you stick w/ bullets designed for the 6.8spc and not the 270 win, you should be fine. Just try to keep your impact velocity above 1800fps and you should be fine.

[J A XSP]

Most bullets are designed to expand down to about 1800fps. I had a 11" 250 savage contender that got 2400fps w/ 100gr Nosler ballistic tip that took game out to over 200yds with that particular load. I also had a 270 jdj that got 2300fps w/ a 130gr ballistic tip that took game to 300yds. Now I have hunted w/ the 6.8spc for the last 12 years, taking game cleanly out to 300yds, but using the 11ogr v-max hornady load. I feel that if you stick w/ bullets designed for the 6.8spc and not the 270 win, you should be fine. Just try to keep your impact velocity above 1800fps and you should be fine.

Good stuff!

I agree about the 110 V-Max load for the 6.8. That bullet shoots very accurately in my barrel and gets very good velocity with a couple of different loads. I happened to have a supply of the 130s and so I figured I'd work up loads with those. I also have a lot of Varget and it really needs the heaviest bullets in that case size to develop good pressure and full ignition. They're super accurate at 100 yards but just a little slow. The 6.8 SPC is an odd case capacity and suffers AR-mag-length syndrome. Being able to seat out further opens up a little more room in the case but it's still tight for slow-burning powders. H4198 is a great powder for appropriate bullet weights but develops pretty hot pressures for the Contender platform so I tend to work below max where possible. This 130/Varget load is more of a loading/target project but I wondered if the combination would work on pigs and smallish white-tail hunting over a feeder.

Also agree about the BTs. They seem to do very well in most any caliber across a pretty wide velocity range. I think some of the other V-Max or even SST bullets will work in a lot of situations but I don't think they're as consistent across calibers and weights as the BTs are.

[Mjshell]

Hopefully the WV Hitman will weigh in. Doc has dispatched alot of deer with handguns.

[Slowpoke Slim]

I would think a 100 gr Nosler ballistic tip would work perfect in that 25-45. They'll open down to 1600fps I believe. Wondering why you didn't go 25 TCU instead? Or is this in an AR (with mag length restrictions)?

I do like the 75 gr Vmax driven much faster (Roberts AI-mine) on coyotes, and I've been playing with the vmax in a 256 Win (necked down 357 mag) with promising results.

I played with a 6.8 spc years ago, and I think a Barnes 100 gr? Never did really warm up to that one, and built the daughter a 257 Roberts (Savage) instead (the 6.8 was supposed to be for her).

[jason280]

Wondering why you didn't go 25 TCU instead?

Looks like its in a Contender, I would imagine its because factory ammo is (somewhat) available....but that's just a guess.

I have both the .25 TCU and .25 Bullberry in Contenders, but I don't use either as hunting/deer rounds (so I have never worried too much about bullet construction).

Another bullet I'm curious about is for my 6.8 SPC. I have a good supply of 130 grain Hornady spire points that shoot very accurately over a full load of Varget but the velocity is pretty slow - in the sub-2400 fps range. For a bullet designed for 270 Winchester speeds, I'm not sure what to expect with that one. The trajectory looks good with that one out to 200 yards but then drops off a fair amount at 300, so realistically, it's a fairly short-yardage round.

Oddly enough, I have a 6.8SPC in a 23" Contender carbine as well. I would imagine the 130's will be too heavily constructed, but you could always try shooting them through boxes of wet newsprint or even through gallon jugs of water. Won't be the best comparison, but will at least let you know if the bullet is expanding.

[snowsnake]

Take a look at the CBB 6.8 bullets, Cavity Back Projectiles (cavitybackbullets.com) They claim the 105g 6.8 bullets will still open at 1400 fps and hold together at 3000.

[HandgunhuntingAfield]

Cutting edge makes several bullets that work down to 13-1400 fps.

[J A XSP]

I would think a 100 gr Nosler ballistic tip would work perfect in that 25-45. They'll open down to 1600fps I believe. Wondering why you didn't go 25 TCU instead? ...

I do like the 75 gr Vmax driven much faster (Roberts AI-mine) on coyotes, and I've been playing with the vmax in a 256 Win (necked down 357 mag) with promising results. ..

I really like the idea of the 25 TCU but dies are rare to non-existent (or available for a ton of money and long wait for custom). The 25-45 dies are cheap and available and factory ammo is also available so there's non-reloading options when I eventually pass my stuff on to my kids. I like the idea of properly head-stamped brass, too.
This barrel is the second that Troy made up for me. He bought a SAAMI spec reamer for the first one and it was just too loose and long-throated.
Interesting to know that the 75 V-Max might work. In general, the Hornady bullets are more available and cheaper than the B-tips.

[J A XSP]

Looks like its in a Contender, I would imagine its because factory ammo is (somewhat) available....but that's just a guess.

I have both the .25 TCU and .25 Bullberry in Contenders, but I don't use either as hunting/deer rounds (so I have never worried too much about bullet construction).



Oddly enough, I have a 6.8SPC in a 23" Contender carbine as well. I would imagine the 130's will be too heavily constructed, but you could always try shooting them through boxes of wet newsprint or even through gallon jugs of water. Won't be the best comparison, but will at least let you know if the bullet is expanding.

My 6.8 is a 20 or 21" carbine barrel so I can develop decent velocity with most bullets. That 130s were on sale at some point so I bought a few boxes. Because I have plenty of Varget, I wanted to see what the combination would do. Accuracy is fantastic and if I use a powder dropper I can just get enough in the case to burn pretty efficiently. Using a ballistic calculator, I can see that my velocities at 100 and 200 will be similar to a 25-06 or 25WSSM at 400 and 500. Based on a what information I can find, it seems like it'll probably expand well enough to do some good and because of the high BC, the trajectory at 200 isn't drastically different from the lighter bullets that I'm shooting.

[jason280]

I really like the idea of the 25 TCU but dies are rare to non-existent (or available for a ton of money and long wait for custom)

The only reason I picked up a .25 TCU barrel was simply because it came with dies and a decent amount of brass/loaded ammo. Same with the BB and others, I would have passed if dies hadn't been included. Consider even the .30 Herrett, you can oftentimes find barrels (especially the 10" versions) cheaper than case forming/die sets.

[Slowpoke Slim]

I really like the idea of the 25 TCU but dies are rare to non-existent (or available for a ton of money and long wait for custom). The 25-45 dies are cheap and available and factory ammo is also available so there's non-reloading options when I eventually pass my stuff on to my kids. I like the idea of properly head-stamped brass, too.
This barrel is the second that Troy made up for me. He bought a SAAMI spec reamer for the first one and it was just too loose and long-throated.
Interesting to know that the 75 V-Max might work. In general, the Hornady bullets are more available and cheaper than the B-tips.

I wasn't aware that those 25-45 dies were readily available, let alone factory ammo was available, that makes total sense now. Not like going "TCU" would be a huge improvement, but if you were trying to squeak out all the bullet speed, it would give a slight edge. Certainly not enough to overcome the brass/dies situation.

Now you got me considering a 25-45...

Thanks a lot. Lol.

Forgot to add: The Hornady 75 gr Vmax has been a great bullet for me in a Roberts, AI Roberts, and now a 256 Win. However, they've been out of production for at least a year now. None of the usual online suppliers have any in stock, so no idea when they will pop up again. Hopefully soon, because my stash is almost gone (I think only a box left at this point). I'd send you some to try if they were commonly available.

[bsekf]

I second the Nosler Ballistic Tips. I've had great success with 30-30, 30 Alaskan, 30/444, 7x444 and 7x30-30. Accurate and (knock wood) haven't had a deer escape.

[J A XSP]

I wasn't aware that those 25-45 dies were readily available, let alone factory ammo was available, that makes total sense now. Not like going "TCU" would be a huge improvement, but if you were trying to squeak out all the bullet speed, it would give a slight edge. Certainly not enough to overcome the brass/dies situation.

Now you got me considering a 25-45...

Thanks a lot. Lol.

Forgot to add: The Hornady 75 gr Vmax has been a great bullet for me in a Roberts, AI Roberts, and now a 256 Win. However, they've been out of production for at least a year now. None of the usual online suppliers have any in stock, so no idea when they will pop up again. Hopefully soon, because my stash is almost gone (I think only a box left at this point). I'd send you some to try if they were commonly available.

Yeah, as an AR round, the 25-45 is sort of a bust but in other platforms where you can do away with the COL limitations, it's darn good. Cheap dies, factory ammo and load data supported in multiple sources make it pretty legit.

If you consider ordering something in that chambering, take Bullberry over MGM. The tighter specs on the reamer make for a really nice chamber. Troy marked my barrel 25-45 Bullberry because of the slight differences and just in case we found pressure issues with the factory ammo due to the tighter chamber and shorter throat. I shot the factory ammo with no issues so he may consider marking any subsequent barrels with the Sharps designation. Either way factory ammo and cases resized with the dies are a perfect fit. Factory ammo is built to AR mag specs and the original reamer specs had the throat so long that even with seating out hand loads, the 87 grain bullet had to jump a really long way. The new chamber specs make it possible to get a much more reasonable distance to the lands with the 87 and it's possible to seat the 100 all the way out to touching.

That's a really generous offer of the 75 grainers. Thanks! Might be cool to know whether this barrels likes tipped bullets. I don't want to cut into your stash but if you've got a few to spare, I'd load 'em up. :) If I've got anything you could use, I'd happily reciprocate.

[ramon]

I use the 90 gr speer gold dot in my 14'' 6.8 with the speer load data and it worked on the 2 deer i shot. Also have 2, 25 cal. a 256 and 25-35. not shot anything with them yet but probably use 75 to 87 in 256 and 90 to 100 in 25-35. The ballistic tips i also use a lot in different calibers.

[toddtd]

my dad (RIP) used a 115gr Speer HP and IMR4895 in a TC Contender with a 14" muzzle brake barrel in 7x30 Waters. i can't remember the velocity but it was 1 gr under the max load. i think (don't quote me) it was around 2300fps+/, but i'm not sure. my dad and the 7x30 Waters killed deer out to 150ish yards, with 30ish yards being more common. he never got an expended bullet because it always exited the deer. i would say that exit hole was 1 1/2 - 2" wide.

i bought a 30 Herrett 10" barrel in the Contender, but i probably won't take it out this year. i need some more practice with it. i shoot a 130gr Speer HP and 24.5gr of Reloder 7 going about 2000fps+/- (i haven't chronyed it yet). were i sit, the deer will be 40-50 yards. 127 yards is about all i can thru the trees and brush, but it is uncommon for me to see the deer there.

[J A XSP]

my dad (RIP) used a 115gr Speer HP and IMR4895 in a TC Contender with a 14" muzzle brake barrel in 7x30 Waters. i can't remember the velocity but it was 1 gr under the max load. i think (don't quote me) it was around 2300fps+/, but i'm not sure. my dad and the 7x30 Waters killed deer out to 150ish yards, with 30ish yards being more common. he never got an expended bullet because it always exited the deer. i would say that exit hole was 1 1/2 - 2" wide.

i bought a 30 Herrett 10" barrel in the Contender, but i probably won't take it out this year. i need some more practice with it. i shoot a 130gr Speer HP and 24.5gr of Reloder 7 going about 2000fps+/- (i haven't chronyed it yet). were i sit, the deer will be 40-50 yards. 127 yards is about all i can thru the trees and brush, but it is uncommon for me to see the deer there.

I think a lot of those Speer hollow point bullets driven to lower speeds might be dandy on deer here in Central Texas. I've hunted with 223 and 22-250 with various "game" bullets and gotten complete explosion and no exit but hollowpoints in the larger calibers should hold together better. Even those light bullets with no exit, good placement in the heart/lung area makes for deer that are dead on the spot or within a few yards running so even with explosive results, I'd count on finding a deer really close.
I suspect that the 100 grain Speer HP bullets I've got for the 24-45 might do as well as the 87 grain Hot-Cor bullets. With any luck, I'll get to hunt a few times this season and try out some different things. :)

[Bobby Tomek]

I'm sure Bobby Tomek will chime in with some great data concerning bullet performance but most of his work is with carbine-length barrels and somewhat quicker velocity.

Actually, for quite a few years I hunted almost exclusively with handguns and was fortunate enough to take a number of big game animals with them. For a span of several years, I was using a 14" .257 JDJ in a Contender and a 15" .250 Savage in a custom XP. Later I had a 15" factory encore barrel. The old 87 grain Hornady SP was a superb performer, and the 85 and 100 grain Nosler BTs also did exceptionally well. My longest shot on a non-varmint animal was 260 yards with the XP/85 grain BT on a beautiful blackbuck down on the Corazon Ranch near Brackettville, TX. At the time, it ranked high in the Records of Exotics for handguns. (I don't care for numbers or records, but since this was a gratis hunt and the ranch owner (Doc Belcher) asked about it, I went ahead and had it entered.)

In the JDJ, I was using Re15 and running the 85 grain BT at 2850 and the 100 grain Nosler a little over 2650 fps. In the .250 XP, the 87 grain Hornady and the 85 grain BT both did well over 2900 fps using reformed IMI Match .308 WCF brass. One of the forum members here is still using my old .257 JDJ 100 grain load recipe in a short-barreled Encore carbine. He and his son have combined to take lots of deer with it.

Keep in mind that Nosler did change the 85 grain BT a few years back and that it is a bit more frangible now. The older ones were classified as "varmint" but had a fairly substantial jacket that was thin up front to facilitate good expansion down to around 1750 fps. The current version will work fine as long as you avoid quartering shots, etc.

With the encore .250 barrel, I experimented with the 100 grain Speer BTSP since I found a great deal on them. I was running them around 2625 fps if memory serves and tested them out to 200 yards. Expansion and terminal performance was very good, and recovered bullets exhibited the classic mushroom shape.

As to the 130 grain Hornady SP in the 6.8, I gave it a workout in reduced loads for my late father-in-law after he had surgery. You really want the impact velocity to be at least 2050-2100 fps. Tissue destruction much below 2200 fps looked like a mono was used instead of a cup-and-core. For your usage, take a look at the Hornady 110 grain V-Max, the 120 grain SST, the Speer 90 grain TNT or the 100 grain Accubond. Any of those will serve you well.

[Mjshell]

Bobby,

how about Nosler partitions 25 cal at handgun velocities. 2000 to 2500 fps. 115 or 120 grain

[J A XSP]

Actually, for quite a few years I hunted almost exclusively with handguns and was fortunate enough to take a number of big game animals with them. For a span of several years, I was using a 14" .257 JDJ in a Contender and a 15" .250 Savage in a custom XP. Later I had a 15" factory encore barrel. The old 87 grain Hornady SP was a superb performer, and the 85 and 100 grain Nosler BTs also did exceptionally well. My longest shot on a non-varmint animal was 260 yards with the XP/85 grain BT on a beautiful blackbuck down on the Corazon Ranch near Brackettville, TX. At the time, it ranked high in the Records of Exotics for handguns. (I don't care for numbers or records, but since this was a gratis hunt and the ranch owner (Doc Belcher) asked about it, I went ahead and had it entered.)

In the JDJ, I was using Re15 and running the 85 grain BT at 2850 and the 100 grain Nosler a little over 2650 fps. In the .250 XP, the 87 grain Hornady and the 85 grain BT both did well over 2900 fps using reformed IMI Match .308 WCF brass. One of the forum members here is still using my old .257 JDJ 100 grain load recipe in a short-barreled Encore carbine. He and his son have combined to take lots of deer with it.

Keep in mind that Nosler did change the 85 grain BT a few years back and that it is a bit more frangible now. The older ones were classified as "varmint" but had a fairly substantial jacket that was thin up front to facilitate good expansion down to around 1750 fps. The current version will work fine as long as you avoid quartering shots, etc.

With the encore .250 barrel, I experimented with the 100 grain Speer BTSP since I found a great deal on them. I was running them around 2625 fps if memory serves and tested them out to 200 yards. Expansion and terminal performance was very good, and recovered bullets exhibited the classic mushroom shape.

As to the 130 grain Hornady SP in the 6.8, I gave it a workout in reduced loads for my late father-in-law after he had surgery. You really want the impact velocity to be at least 2050-2100 fps. Tissue destruction much below 2200 fps looked like a mono was used instead of a cup-and-core. For your usage, take a look at the Hornady 110 grain V-Max, the 120 grain SST, the Speer 90 grain TNT or the 100 grain Accubond. Any of those will serve you well.

Hey Bobby!
I think I remember you telling me about loading down those 130s. I got close to 2400 with max load (by case capacity) but haven't chrony'd the most accurate loads. I suspect I'd see 2300 at least. That keeps me over 2000 fts only out to about 100 yards. That makes it a stand-over-feeder round but it can be useful for that. I kept that 129-grain Hornady SP loaded up in my 6.5 Bullberry for that purpose and it worked well. Any time I had a measured 100 yard shot, I put one of those in the chamber. If I was stalking or had a chance on shots out to 200, I'd keep the 100 grain BT in the chamber because it was no-brainer flat out to 200.

I picked up a couple of boxes of the 120 grain SST Hornady ammo for the 6.8 and it seems to shoot very nicely, though I haven't really drilled down on grouping with it. The 110 VMAX bullets, either factory or hand loaded are extremely accurate. That 6.8 barrel is a carbine so I'm not worried about any bullets in that round except the lower-velocity 130.

Your 25 caliber experience based on the 257 JDJ are going to be much closer to rifle velocities. With that 25-45 I'll be lucky to routinely push a 100 grainer to 2400 fps. A BT at that speed starts to drop into a questionable velocity range at around 200 but would probably be just fine. The Speer Hollowpoint sheds velocity faster so it's slowing down to 2000 or lower at around 100 yards. That might keep it from being explosive.

I'll have to try some wet-newspaper testing on the 100 HP and the 87 SP and see what they actually do. Seems like one of those will be fine if I get a chance to use that rig for hunting. Not for nothing, there's a 110 grain FTX designed for 25-35 that's probably perfect for the velocity range generated by the 25-45 in a shorter barrel. :)

[Bobby Tomek]

Bobby,

how about Nosler partitions 25 cal at handgun velocities. 2000 to 2500 fps. 115 or 120 grain

I used the .25 cal 100 grain Partition a bit and liked it, though it never seemed to shoot as well as the Ballistic Tip. The 115 and 120 Partitions will expand down to around 1850 fps or so but open more slowly than some other bullets. They'll work but don't kill as quickly as a bullet that disrupts more tissue and creates a wider wound channel.

[Bobby Tomek]

JA-

Not sure if still on sale, but Powder Valley recently had those FTX on clearance for something like $22.50 per box of 100. I was SO tempted to get some for a mild load in the 25-06 but didn't pull the trigger on that sale. Now I wish I did lol...

I am going to look and see if I still have any 85 grain BTs left. I think I sold them but don't recall for certain. If I have any, I'll send them to you.

EDITED TO ADD: Powder Valley no longer has the FTX on clearance, but they are still on sale for a bit over $28 per 100.

[J A XSP]

JA-

Not sure if still on sale, but Powder Valley recently had those FTX on clearance for something like $22.50 per box of 100. I was SO tempted to get some for a mild load in the 25-06 but didn't pull the trigger on that sale. Now I wish I did lol...

I am going to look and see if I still have any 85 grain BTs left. I think I sold them but don't recall for certain. If I have any, I'll send them to you.

EDITED TO ADD: Powder Valley no longer has the FTX on clearance, but they are still on sale for a bit over $28 per 100.

I'll check it out. Natchez has them at $31.29 and has some good prices on 44 bullets. I'll get a couple boxes and check them out.

[Bobby Tomek]

In looking though some old notes in my loading room, I realized I completely forgot about a bullet I tried in the 15" .250: the Speer 100 grain HP. Because hogs are always on my mind, this one was a bit too fragile for my comfort at those speeds, but in the Sharps and for deer, it may be just the ticket. I have no doubt it will open well. Put that one tight behind the shoulder of a deer, and it's time to get out the skinning knife. It's not a bullet for extended ranges but should have no problem punching out a whitetail out to 150-175 yards or so.

Also, a friend of mine out in the desert southwest has used that one for years in his 25-35, loading one up the spout and another in the tubular mag. I know he is keeping things mild in that old rifle, so his velocities should be close to what you can get with the Sharps. He's taken quite a few mule deer, a couple whitetails and a bunch of javelina with that load.

[J A XSP]

In looking though some old notes in my loading room, I realized I completely forgot about a bullet I tried in the 15" .250: the Speer 100 grain HP. Because hogs are always on my mind, this one was a bit too fragile for my comfort at those speeds, but in the Sharps and for deer, it may be just the ticket. I have no doubt it will open well. Put that one tight behind the shoulder of a deer, and it's time to get out the skinning knife. It's not a bullet for extended ranges but should have no problem punching out a whitetail out to 150-175 yards or so.

Also, a friend of mine out in the desert southwest has used that one for years in his 25-35, loading one up the spout and another in the tubular mag. I know he is keeping things mild in that old rifle, so his velocities should be close to what you can get with the Sharps. He's taken quite a few mule deer, a couple whitetails and a bunch of javelina with that load.

That's the stuff!! :) I had a feelin that if anyone would have useful information on exactly the bullet I'm curious about, it would be you. I have a good supply of that bullet (it's consistently been one of the cheapest bullets available) and I should be able to push it accurately with a few different powders. If Varget does what I think it will in this case, it's going to push that bullet up to around 2400 fps with as full a load as I can get in the case and likely give half-MOA accuracy. Boiler-room shots on Central Texas deer should be a no-brainer in terms of ultimate killing power but it'll be great if the actually hold together relatively well.