Questions concerning quality control on new Model 12 LRPV.

[Yodaman]

I received my new model 12 lrpv in 6br norma about a month and a half ago. Was super excited to get it to the range. Was a long wait. First thing I noticed was it didn’t appear to have a recessed target crown on the barrel. Had to send the rifle back due to a major chamber issue. I advised Savage about the crown and simply sent it back hoping that they would address both issues and get it back to me. When I got it back they did NOT address the barrel crown, chamber appears to be somewhat smoother and they knocked a small piece out of the stock about 1” from the front. Once I saw these problems I immediately called Customer service.
I’m not on here to just rant but I feel that Savage really needs to address a serious quality control issue before it has a negative impact on their reputation as a supplier of some really accurate and dependable long range bolt action rifles. Does anyone have a photo of what the inside of a chamber on a lrpv should look like when new? Or just a good description. I posted a couple of photos earlier but just got one response that it was somewhat questionable. Looking for some ideas on what I might should be looking for. You help would be greatly appreciated.

[Dave Hoback]

Welcome to the forum. Sorry for your experience. How does it shoot? We get usually, one of these kinds of threads each month. Here’s the same answer I always give: What the inside of your chamber looks like is moot unless there is a problem associated with it. (Not likely). But we didn’t hear anything about how it shoots because I don’t believe you did shoot it. Let me guess? Do you by any chance have a brand shiny-new BoreScope? You took a peak & saw some machining marks, right? Are the cases sticking, hard to come out. Oh, we don’t know yet.

Shoot your firearms before condemning them as “inaccurate” or “unacceptable” or whatever. You may have had a hummer! And now, if it just shows basic accuracy, you’ll never know.

Don’t mean this to sound harsh. Anyone here will tell you I go out of my way to help forum members because I enjoy it.

[charlie b]

I would also advise to shoot it first. A 'target' crown is not really necessary. A crown is just there to protect the muzzle end of the rifling from being 'dinged'.

But, if it bothers you that you don't have a crown on it, then send it back again.

And, yes, Savage customer service is not known to be the best. Sometimes they fix problems, sometimes they don't. And communication is rare. The good part is most of their rifles shoot really well, even with relatively rough machine work.

[prdatr]

I received my new model 12 lrpv in 6br norma about a month and a half ago. Was super excited to get it to the range. Was a long wait. First thing I noticed was it didn’t appear to have a recessed target crown on the barrel. Had to send the rifle back due to a major chamber issue. I advised Savage about the crown and simply sent it back hoping that they would address both issues and get it back to me. When I got it back they did NOT address the barrel crown, chamber appears to be somewhat smoother and they knocked a small piece out of the stock about 1” from the front. Once I saw these problems I immediately called Customer service.
I’m not on here to just rant but I feel that Savage really needs to address a serious quality control issue before it has a negative impact on their reputation as a supplier of some really accurate and dependable long range bolt action rifles. Does anyone have a photo of what the inside of a chamber on a lrpv should look like when new? Or just a good description. I posted a couple of photos earlier but just got one response that it was somewhat questionable. Looking for some ideas on what I might should be looking for. You help would be greatly appreciated.

Savage "Quality" in general has been in the toilet for decades, No Chit. Customer Service is non existent, as you found out. The only thing that they have going for them are cheap prices, die hard old school fans. cheap prices, easy barrel change system and cheap prices.
"If" you can get past all the problems, you just may come across a few that shoot MOA but for the most part the "juice isn't worth the squeeze" on new rifles.

[Turkeytider]

Savage "Quality" in general has been in the toilet for decades, No Chit. Customer Service is non existent, as you found out. The only thing that they have going for them are cheap prices, die hard old school fans. cheap prices, easy barrel change system and cheap prices.
"If" you can get past all the problems, you just may come across a few that shoot MOA but for the most part the "juice isn't worth the squeeze" on new rifles.

Sooo....what pray tell brings you to Savageshooters.com in the first place? Why would you be interested in a site dedicated to a brand that you apparently hold in such low regard?

[Dave Hoback]

No kidding on the “old school fans”, HA! I’m SO in the crowd! I started with Savage in the mid 90’s. At the time, as a broke 18yo, it was for the price. But I learned to love my first Model 111 combo in 30-06, with its Simmons 3-9x40 glass, LOL! They just stuck with me. But I learned them in & out through the later years & now will only buy used rifles for the Actions, or just buying the Actions themselves, then build it up myself. I simply could not be happier with my current Model Rig. It’s about as custom built as a Savage platform can be, with a host of Titanium parts(including several a few I machined myself!). Everything about it is precisely what I want. It’s more accurate than I am by a long margin, and I sincerely love looking at wearing its beautiful Cerakote paint scheme. (Applied by yours truly!)

Also, I agree completely with Charlie on the Crown. You know why the official crown used is recommended to be 11 degrees on barrels? Because nobody recommended 12 degrees first! Seriously, there is absolutely no science behind the angle of a muzzle crown being precisely 11 degrees! None! There simply needs to be some type of crown on the muzzle. It should be cleanly & even machined, but it doesn’t matter if it’s 11, 11.7, 13 or 22 degrees… whatever! I have mine done recessed Target as well, because I like how they look! But I’ll be completely honest: if I ordered a barrel with the Recessed & it came with the standard 11 degree target, I wouldn’t send it back. No sir, it’s just not that important because I know it won’t affect accuracy in any way. By the way… what does the crown look like on your rifle?

[pdog06]

Shoot it. You stated the chamber looks smoother. No idea if the crown is actually even an issue yet. It may just surprise you.

Tell us what the major chamber issue was? And how it looks smoother now? Is it just by shining a light in the chamber or are you using a borescope?

[charlie b]

'We' all know that Savage is not known for quality machining and fit and finish. They are relatively inexpensive.

Why do 'we' buy them? Mainly due to their accuracy. Most of them are really good out of the box. The barrel machining may look horrible yet will still shoot sub-MOA and sometimes 1/2MOA out of the box. Combine that with the barrel nut for those of us who like to tinker with things and they generate a following.

Savage got me hooked into precision rifles. I found a cheap Axis at a Walmart that had a heavy barrel in .223. After shooting it I found it was really accurate and it got me started down the path. I also have a model 12 that works very well for me, especially after I put a better barrel on it.

While Savage actions can be used for precision work they are at a disadvantage in certain disciplines.

PS I do understand your displeasure after spending a bunch of money on a 'premium' LRPV and then have problems with it.

[want2ride]

Savage "Quality" in general has been in the toilet for decades, No Chit. Customer Service is non existent, as you found out. The only thing that they have going for them are cheap prices, die hard old school fans. cheap prices, easy barrel change system and cheap prices.
"If" you can get past all the problems, you just may come across a few that shoot MOA but for the most part the "juice isn't worth the squeeze" on new rifles.

weird, all of my new savages are as good or better shooters than the two flat back 110's that i had (both 7mm RM and both roughly MOA). now i have had three 300 WSM's that have been from early to late model accutrigger and two 6.5 creedmoor (one 10 years old and one one year old) and all are half MOA shooters or there about. Add in the multitude of half to 1 MOA 110's and axis rifles they far outnumber the 3 savages that i have ever owned that were over MOA. As a matter of fact, 3/4 of my Savages have been more accurate than my 3 Remingtons, 3 Brownings, One TC 2 Tikka and one Ruger. I don't own the 3 Savages that were easily over MOA, and only have one Tikka and the one Ruger (that i got last spring) left... and a dozen Savages.
Now i do have 2 custom and a Proof Elevation that shoot as well as my best savages, but i don't know if i can shoot much better than half MOA groups anymore... so maybe they are more accurate and maybe not.
I just can not agree that the old ones are better than the new ones. The only issue i have other than a little rough machining (that doesn't affect the operation) is the one 12 FV in 22-250 that has an ejecting problem about half the time. The 22-250 problem is well known.

Overall, those are pretty good odds to get a good one.

[Whynot]

A crown is just there to protect the muzzle end of the rifling from being 'dinged'..

As I understand it- that is one of the purposes of a crown. The other is that as the bullet leaves the barrel and the gasses are escaping that you want a smooth consistent escape path for the gas so they do not put an unbalanced force on the bullet. And that the 11 degree crown was actually the result of a lot of science and testing...... but for 1 specific bullet design. With that specific bullet they decided that 11 degrees was the optimum for letting gas escape without impacting the bullet...... but then it just became the go to.

[South Prairie jim]

As I understand it- that is one of the purposes of a crown. The other is that as the bullet leaves the barrel and the gasses are escaping that you want a smooth consistent escape path for the gas so they do not put an unbalanced force on the bullet. And that the 11 degree crown was actually the result of a lot of science and testing...... but for 1 specific bullet design. With that specific bullet they decided that 11 degrees was the optimum for letting gas escape without impacting the bullet...... but then it just became the go to.

I’ve shot both and I can tell you with certainty that 11degree or step/ Varmint crown will make absolutely zero difference on the target out to 1000 yards.
I would more concerned as to which twist rate the barrel came with, hopefully 1-8..and not the 1-12

[sharpshooter]

There is no science behind an 11 degree crown, or any other crown for that matter. A crown is a crown, as long as it is cut perpendicular to the bore. As for a specific bullet type, that has never been proven.
The fact is, this no more than a trend that stuck. The 11 degree crown came about when a gunsmith cut a crown on a bench rest barrel without knowing that the compound was not square. When the cut was finished, he thought it looked cool, and just left it that way. So, naturally when he goes to the next match he gets questions. After he won the match, he gets more questions so he made up a bullshit story, and now everybody copies him.
The guy that told me that story was Fred Sinclair.

[Dave Hoback]

Is there an echo in here, LOL!

I’m sure Sinclair even made that story up! LOL! I can list half a doze articles or more with the origins of the 11 degree crown. While it is probably along those lines; someone, somewhere used it in a winning rifle & people took notice, the FACT IS nobody truly knows where or exactly when it started.,,

[South Prairie jim]

You guys would know more about the origins than I would, I just shoot the targets that are assigned to me and report back.

[Whynot]

There is no science behind an 11 degree crown, or any other crown for that matter. A crown is a crown, as long as it is cut perpendicular to the bore. As for a specific bullet type, that has never been proven.
The fact is, this no more than a trend that stuck. The 11 degree crown came about when a gunsmith cut a crown on a bench rest barrel without knowing that the compound was not square. When the cut was finished, he thought it looked cool, and just left it that way. So, naturally when he goes to the next match he gets questions. After he won the match, he gets more questions so he made up a bullshit story, and now everybody copies him.
The guy that told me that story was Fred Sinclair.

So it doesn't matter to me one way or the other because also have barrels with different styles of crowns that shoot great. With the evidence that I've seen (high speed photographs of the gas escaping a barrel at roughly 11 degrees) and the stories told to me- I still believe it was based on theories and tests. That doesn't mean they came up with the right answer- because as stated lots of ways work.

I do call BS on the story you posted though..... I'm not a great machinist- but even with my limited skill can easily see if cutting 11 degrees off.... so someone skilled enough to build bench rest winning rifles should easily spot it as soon as it started.

But if there's no advantage to it then I don't get why it has stuck around. There's easier crowns to do- and it doesn't offer as much protection as other ways- so it may as well go away.

[GrenGuy]

I have cut barrels in My garage and crowned them using hand tools. The barrel shot less than MOA when I started and was better yet when I finished. Probably, because the shorter Barrel was a little stiffer? There are methods on the i net for DYS crowns. There are examples on line where barrels were cut off with an abrasive chop saw, to perform velocity test, and it did not deter from accuracy.

All good information, but drifting away from the original thread.

[Turkeytider]

I received my new model 12 lrpv in 6br norma about a month and a half ago. Was super excited to get it to the range. Was a long wait. First thing I noticed was it didn’t appear to have a recessed target crown on the barrel. Had to send the rifle back due to a major chamber issue. I advised Savage about the crown and simply sent it back hoping that they would address both issues and get it back to me. When I got it back they did NOT address the barrel crown, chamber appears to be somewhat smoother and they knocked a small piece out of the stock about 1” from the front. Once I saw these problems I immediately called Customer service.
I’m not on here to just rant but I feel that Savage really needs to address a serious quality control issue before it has a negative impact on their reputation as a supplier of some really accurate and dependable long range bolt action rifles. Does anyone have a photo of what the inside of a chamber on a lrpv should look like when new? Or just a good description. I posted a couple of photos earlier but just got one response that it was somewhat questionable. Looking for some ideas on what I might should be looking for. You help would be greatly appreciated.

Just FWIW, my new LRPV had a recessed crown. There were no noticeable issues with the chamber. No noticeable burrs or rough spots, etc. As is par for Savage, the barrel was dirty as was the bolt face. Anyone buying a "new" Savage rifle should be prepared to clean it before a first range session. Then again, you should clean ANY new firearm prior to first use, regardless of brand.

[J.Baker]

Anyone seen my hip boots? The assumptions, presumptions, and theoretical guess-timates are piling up pretty deep in here.

[Whynot]

Anyone seen my hip boots? The assumptions, presumptions, and theoretical guess-timates are piling up pretty deep in here.

You took your hip waders off?? Rookie move....... ALWAYS dress appropriately for the web!

[South Prairie jim]

Anyone seen my hip boots? The assumptions, presumptions, and theoretical guess-timates are piling up pretty deep in here.

No question about that… I’m shooting a recessed this year vs last years 11 degree and see no indication one is better than the other.

[J.Baker]

You took your hip waders off?? Rookie move....... ALWAYS dress appropriately for the web!

[Dave Hoback]

No question about that… I’m shooting a recessed this year vs last years 11 degree and see no indication one is better than the other.

Nope! But once again… I’ve spoken before about a person’s piece of mind, and certain things being exactly likea Placebo. A product, caliber, part, what have you, working better because the user genuinely believes it does. Even in lacking Scientific, Empirical or Analytical evidence of any kind. While I hold no one barrel crown above any other, I DO believe in Placebo effect to some degree.

And on a simpler note, the Recessed Target Crown looks the best & does protect it best from bumps & dings, LOL!

[pdog06]

You took your hip waders off?? Rookie move....... ALWAYS dress appropriately for the web!

Lol ain’t that the truth

[South Prairie jim]

Nope! But once again… I’ve spoken before about a person’s piece of mind, and certain things being exactly likea Placebo. A product, caliber, part, what have you, working better because the user genuinely believes it does. Even in lacking Scientific, Empirical or Analytical evidence of any kind. While I hold no one barrel crown above any other, I DO believe in Placebo effect to some degree.

And on a simpler note, the Recessed Target Crown looks the best & does protect it best from bumps & dings, LOL!

placbo ?
Dave, I respect your opinion but I also have the targets the tell me all I need to know. Science doesn’t always work out just like the lowest ES/SD doesn’t ensure the smallest groups.

[Dave Hoback]

placbo ?
Dave, I respect your opinion but I also have the targets the tell me all I need to know. Science doesn’t always work out just like the lowest ES/SD doesn’t ensure the smallest groups.

Huh? It’s not an opinion. I’m not recommending anything. I was simply making a reference as to why some people think the 11 degree Crown is best. Same reason for many things. Piece of mind. It’s not MY point of view. I actually agree with you. I’ve said several times I don’t think different barrel crowns show any improvement.