With respect to the NEW STYLE, which granted is not as good as the OLD STYLE, What is the length of a good spring supposedly from Savage thru Gun Shack.
Say I have a box of Savage Springs, reach in a pick one. Based on free length, a calibrated hand swish, try it and see?
You stated 28 lbs is oversprung. Is that 28 pounds of static force with the adjusted pin held in your hand at full decock, in the bolt decocked, Cocked and ready to go fly?
The 28lb rating is the normal compression spring rating, meaning yes at full length it takes 28lbs to collapse the spring 1”. Honestly, it doesn’t matter what rating of numbers one uses. The goal is having 100% primer ignition.Originally Posted by Rocketvapor
NEW STYLE PIN
So, when I compress these springs about 0.3 inches I get 23, 32, 40+.
Ain't gonna get to 1" compression
Here's the "INPUT DATA" for the small, weak, worn out spring (see springs in post #71)
Force required to lift off cocking notch 24.5 pounds.
Force require to lift off Bolt Head @ full fall, 10.5 lbs.
Using this and a 200 pound industrial scale.
Pin measurements (from cocking indicator)
Cocking notch, 0.005" to indicator,
Cocked and on sear 0.028",
Fired 0.288".
Protrusion is 0.044-0.045"
I think there was a formula posted in one of these threads.
Sounds like I will lose about 0.020" in pin fall from 0.045" protrusion, and about 4 pounds due to sear/cocking pin friction/drag.
So far, this rifle has had ZERO Misfires :)
Made our first range trip with the new Savage.
Sighted in thru barrel and scope @ 50, 4 shots, adjusted scope, and mount for cheek position and height.
Gonna need the next lower set of rings (got mid) or a cheek rest.
Hate to do anything permanent ( for now) to the stock.
She used a folded up gater.
Only went to 100 yards. Shot 22 Nosgar and 22 Nosler which did better, maybe ammo, or just getting a few rounds down the pipe.
Load guess of 31.8 and 32.0 grs of SB6.5 with 85.5s. Lighter load was under 3000fps, heavier load a little over 3000.
1 2992fps SD 12.1
2 3016fps SD 23.3
3 3015fps SD 13.8
4 2980fps SD 5.7
Nice. Looks like you found a good node.
Thanks, she be happy :)
Looks like she is pointed in the right direction.
This was a new barrel, new brass, and the loads were a guess based on past AR loads.
Ran a bore mop every 10 rounds or so.
Gonna dither the charge a few tenths, and maybe juggle the seating depth some.
OR, maybe the better groups were just a fluke.
Kinda late here, but I encourage going with a cheek rest. Just do some stick on hard foam at the proper height you need, if you don’t want permanent. I’m a chassis guy & use an adjustable rest. I didn’t years ago because I was an AR15 shooter… the stand up & shoot, Run ‘n Gun sort. But since 2014 I’m strictly a bench shooter. (Being disabled pretty much decided that!) So I appreciate the adjustable rest because I like my rings a bit higher.
She's shot once from a bench, once prone.
Both times the 31.8 load did the best. (31.5 to 32.0)
Might take a few times to really get her on the rifle.
A light tacky spray glue and hobby foam might work with little chance of damaging the stock.
I can always clean it up and add some poly to the stock area.
Going back, maybe next week with some dither in the jump.
Make some more once fired from new and make some twice fired.
Tossed together another bolt.
The right one is a new style pin with the Thrust Bearing and shim in 22Nosler (shot groups in picture),
Middle one is the old style pin with Ceramic bearing (7/32) /38 Spec and shim in 22 Nosler, will try next week.
and
The left one is an old style in 6.8/22 Nosgar with the Thrust Bearing and shim. It did OK.
Took the wife to the Bogalusa range yesterday.
Had the range to ourselves, nice day with mostly a tail wind.
Here are some targets for the day. Note that all shots were shot at POA with no wind compensation.
Fliers? no idea :)
Set out targets @ 300 yards for her Savage, and some test loads.
All the same charge, bullet, and primer but some new brass and some once fired, and a small range of seating depths.
Tried a bolt with the new style pin, and one with the old style pin.
All were shot at POA, no wind adjustment.
She picked old style pin for the match later this month.
EDIT:
Looking at the small green dots target (1" dots @ 300yds), shot top dot, changed bolt shot left dot then bottom dot, changed bolt
shot right dot. Don't remember shot order, but the 'Fliers' came in the first group after a bolt swap.
The difference in new vs once fired seems small (top and bottom dots)
It's been a while since making a progress post on Flo's Savage.
Made a couple practice trips, one @ 300, one @ 600.
A few tweaks are on hold (per her orders) until AFTER Saturday's 600 match.
Managed to slip in a 38/Ceramic Ball mod and preload flat wound spring a little more.
Have various springs, and the Target Trigger and Sear to play with after the match.
Will slip in a pin with the set screw mod and recheck drop/clearance.
Ball has made a small indent (about 100 dry fires :) and about 100 rounds) in the BAS.
I'm gonna try a variation on Dave's Tungsten Carbide BAS insert.
A Micrometer tip and a new style BAS. Cost money but no machining.
A 10mm tip, wrapped with one turn of 2mil Kapton tape slips in and rests in the bottom of the BAS bore.
It's recessed about 0.080" but with the ceramic ball doesn't come close to the other parts.
Slipped a 10mm thrust bearing race (just one) under the Carbide tip and the tip is 0.032"
recessed.
Nice. Yes, I’ve had the best results with a Silicon-Nitride BB/Tungsten Surface Lift Kit. Lowest Coefficient/Friction possible between them. However, I’m just using my Titanium Lift kit with the Si3N4 BB against the steel set screw in my Lumley Ti. BAS. And yes, it has made a slight impression in the steel. (That Si3N4 is some hard stuff!), however, I’ve stopped searching for having the ultimate lightest bolt lift. It’s still light, but not as light as once was. I’ve concentrated on efficiency with the firing pin and the most important aspect being to maximize the amount of Striker Travel, aka, Firing Pin Fall. The set screw is a good mod. Or making a tighter spec. Cocking Piece, as other with the ability have done. Limiting the loss of Travel is key.
Made a 600yd match Saturday.
Flo and her Savage whupped me and my AR
3rd relay was her best (ever).
Shotmarker
AVG 2060 SD 20.6 SCORE 197-9X.
Has some other Savage shooters with the SAV-2 set down in the low ozs.
Just a little too light for the wife and I.
Pull was under a pound. Is now about 9-10oz (light enough).
Cut two turns off Standard blade spring,installed trigger spring from Red Blade Trigger (not the whole trigger just the blade).
Buffed and put another coat of Poly on her stock.
Still haven't put in the set screw mod. Have to make a trip to town to get the set screw.
Congratulations! Sounds like you have a good one (or two, gun and wife :) ).
I've been following.....
Keeping my bad Karma intact since 1952
Loading up some more ammo for a practice session maybe tomorrow or Thursday.
Got some more Win41 primers and will let her try the 41's (20ea) and CCI450 (20ea) plus some foulers.
Didn't do a deep clean on the barrel.
Played with the springs and got a 7oz pull with about 50% blade force.
Original Trigger and Sear.
10 pull average is 7.2oz, range was 7.4 to 6.8
Wife shot a few of the WIN41 primers with the modified old style pin.
Just 10 of the WIN41 and 10 CCI450.
Still haven't done the set screw mod but it can only make things better. Right?
Ignition was fine with the 41s but she quit early, not feeling up to par.
She helped record a primer weight test I was doing with my AR.
The pin was the flatwound spring (sort of light), two 0.050" shims in the spring stack, a 38/ceramic ball with a 1/4" ball (larger contact radius) and about 0.095" added to the internal stack. Used a new style BAS with a micrometer carbide tip inside. No external shim. I counterbored the cocking pin threads about 1.5 threads to get the pin threaded in a little more and shorten the spring length. Will post pictures when I pull the bolt back apart. She likes the lighter trigger.
I cut between 1.5 and 2 turns off the Target Trigger Safety Blade spring and used the Target Trigger trigger spring (but used the original trigger/sear). Have not installed the Target Trigger/Sear yet.
I like the new digital trigger gauge. Seems accurate and repeatable. Measurement of blade force for LOW trigger weights might have a safety benefit.
It LOOKS like some blade force is applied directly to the trigger. I ended up with about 7 oz of total force including 3.5oz safety blade force.
That's about 50% and assumed a safe ratio.
Pictures later.
and the Tubbs springs (2) are on order.
Here's what happened last Thursday.
I loaded up a primer weight to muzzle velocity test for my AR with heavy CCI primers and light primers.
But, not going to talk about that here :)
Flo shot 10 rounds with CCI450 primers and 10 rounds with WIN41 primers.
Shortly after we started we got a Sensor message on the shotmarker and rounds drifted right about 3/4 to 1moa.
Velocities were about 50 to 100 fps less than expected in spite of muzzle velocities normal to a little higher.
Everyone I've talked to said one sensor shouldn't cause that.
Here's 10 shot groups from my AR on two different days, extreme heavy and light primers.
My intent was Velocity Vs Primer weight. Odd# was light primers one day and reversed to odd# shots were heavy primers on the second day.
So on to Flo's results, shot 4 foulers then a ten shot group.
Her group shifted RIGHT and ShotMarker velocities were also lower.
Even with that she got a pretty good group with CCI Primers (all about 3.66grains).
Her Garmin data for the ten shots were:
Flo 3/21/24 Savage 22N
CCI 450 3.66gr 31.8gr SB6.5 85.5
10 shots
min 3002.3
avg 3018.2
max 3033.1
ES 30.9
SD 11.2
3000fps at the muzzle usually gets about 2000fps @ 600.
Did I mention she REALLY likes the trigger @ 7oz :)
We go back this Thursday to practice some more.
Here's the progress on her firing pin (STILL HAVEN'T made it to town for the 1/4X28 set screw)
Info gathered mostly from old posts by Fred and Dave.
Pin protrusion is about 0.035-0.036", compared to new pin @ 0.058".
Drilled into the bottom of the cocking piece about 1.5 to 2 threads to shorten pin length about 0.045" (increase fall).
Used the Colt Commander flat wound spring Dave found. Force was a little low so I used 2 races from a Chinese 10mmX5mmX4mm thrust bearing, got 10 for about $8. Had to ream out the 5mm ID with a carbide spiral bit to fit over pin shaft. 11X5mmX4.5mm (5mm reamed to 6MM) would probably fit down at that end of the pin.
Could use one each 10mm and 11mm, or two 11mm for a small range in mass and spring force.
Used new BAS and a 10mm carbide micrometer tip and another 10X5mm race. One wrap of 0.002" Kapton tape trimmed to carbide tip. Tip ended up recessed about 0.030" after the addition of the 10X5mm race.
38cal case head bored for a 1/4" Ceramic ball, snapped in with vice adds about 0.127" to internal length or 0.097" including BAS recess (0.127" - 0.030"= 0.097).
Could eliminate race inside BAS for about 0.080" recess, 0.127"- 0.080" = 0.047" total inside increase.
No external shim.
Will continue to monitor performance but worked with 41 type primers.
This is NOT a Thrust Bearing "KIT". It is a Chinese thrust bearing (eBay), used for the races only.
Last edited by Rocketvapor; 03-26-2024 at 04:45 AM. Reason: add pic
Made a range trip to Saorsa Acres in Bogalusa.
600yds, windy as heck, then some 100yd shots.
Flo dialed back to her previous 100yd zero and shot at an 8" target ,push pin in center as a POA (bad idea).
Shot the 4 sighters then 10 shots with CCI 450 primers, then changed target and shot 10 with WIN41.
What power scope is she using ?? I would have her shoot at a much smaller
target center. Have her shoot at a white 1/2" dot. Adjust the scope over so all hits
stay off to the side of the aiming point. Are Yinz setting out any flags or wind streamers ??
Keeping my bad Karma intact since 1952
Only brought 8 inch targets (for 600).
We usually use 1 inch dots on a white piece of typing paper.
This was just an ad-hock check of scope zero. She might need to come 1/8 MOA to the right.
This was a 40X Burris. Last 100yd zero was a couple hundred rounds ago, probably in Dec.
No flags around 100yds.
Flags down range were busy :)
Shot a couple different loads @ 600 (31.8gr, 31.7gr) then 31.65gr @ 100.
She really likes the trigger @ 7oz
5 second video.
We are in San Antonio, visiting daughter, grand daughter, and brand new Great Grand Son.
SAW the Texas Air Show, Cloudy Eclipse and will pop in for a quick visit with Lance and Naomi.
(After getting new tires put on the truck).
First trip to the range after our trip to Texas.
A 600yd match.
I shot a bunch of left overs and won't talk about my score
Took my time and loaded up 80 rounds for my little Savage and her 22 Nosler bolt gun :)
Sorted primers, Charged with SB6.5, 31.75gr (+/- 0.01gr), sorted bullets by weight.
She started off with a 196-8X, followed with a 196-6X. Not bad.
3rd relay I got her to pause and evaluate the group she had going after 2 sighters and 6 shots.
She adjusted UP 2 clicks (1/4 MOA) took a few more shots, adjusted UP 2 more clicks and shot her
BEST EVER 20 round group. 200-8
Total 592-22X, 98.7%
Back to Saorsa Acres today for some 600yd practice.
She shot some of Match left overs, 85.5, 31.75gr, CCI
10 shot avg 2995.8, SD 14.5. Shotmarker showed low velocity (again) with rounds left over from match.
Then shot some 95gr SMKs in a ladder from 29.8gr SB6.5 to 30.7grC.
Compared CCI450 (shot better) with WIN41 (shot faster)
This is the CCI Ladder;
Avg for fastest 3 shots, 95gr SMK 30.7gr, CCI450 was 2880fps,
Avg for fastest 3 shots, 95gr SMK 30.7gr, WIN 41 was 2904fps.
Working on a load for when she moves up to 1000yds.
nice work. Looks like it is dialed in
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