New barrel recommendations

[Dave Hoback]

You just proved my point. You said how well the Maker holds tolerances. I’m speaking of the Rifling processes. To what you said, Shilen does Button Rifling as well as Bartlien does Cut rifling. And either barrel can be easily trashed by whoever does the Chambering. Magical Cut Rifling isn’t going to fix a botched chambering. You can talk all you want. There is NO evidence that one type RIFLIN is better. The best is anecdotal evidence. (What you just provided. So continue arguing the point all you want. That dog won’t hunt.


What do you mean as you get better? What are you… in your 20’s or 30’s? I’m 45 and understand that I lose a little every year. I peeked quite a few years ago. LOL! We certainly aren’t getting better. Unless you somehow found the mythological fountain of youth?

[Robinhood]

The barrels that high level competitors buy are the ones that are better. If you chamber two barrels a year and wear both of them out, you cant afford to waste time on the manufactures that are not at the top of the game. You or I may never see the difference but there are people that do. You can stand on a soap box all day long and proclaim your opinion, the one I listen too will be the one who has the been there and done that. If I wanted to shoot world record groups, I think I would pay attention to what the guys trying to do the same thing say. Yes lapping/gauging, straightness, chambering etc... matter but in the end group size matters. When you have the ability to shoot small groups at any distance, your equipment will reflect the same. No one brings a Shaw barrel to the top competition regardless of quality of the chambering. But you will see Bartlein, Krieger, Rock, and Hawk Hill maybe Brux near the top every time. I am currious as to why that is..........

There is NO evidence that one type RIFLIN is better. The best is anecdotal evidence.

Button rifling induces considerably more stress than cut rifling. Stress is not good for strings of fire more than a few rounds. This is not anecdotal. I question where your data comes from.

While most aftermarket barrels are adequate for the majority of us, there is a difference in price if you want to go all out.

A prefit Bartlein from Bugholes in 6.5 creedmoor will cost you about $675 shipped plus or minus
And a Criterion or Shilen from NSS may net you <$400 shipped.

Not everyone needs the top of the line barrel. Personally I want a quality barrel that is straight, with a best reamer specs for my application and with very little runout throughout the machined areas. Whether a Shilen, Bartlien or a Krieger I know I will get the bang for my buck with those considerations. Expectations are critical. I would like a rifle to shoot 3-4 inch 20 shot groups or better at 600 yards. But that is me and what I think I can do with my shooting and reloading abilities.

What do you need or expect?

[Whynot]

Often times some of the things that we call "shooters lore" is based on fact even though it may not be completely correct.... Once again- not a barrel maker so take it for what its worth:

Cut barrels often last longer than button barrels because they are harder steel on the scale. A former employee of a barrel maker that offered both cut and button options told me that they would test their blanks and use the softer steel for button because it was easier on the machines and less likely to break a button off in a barrel (which I assume ruins the barrel and the expensive button as well). That doesn't mean the process is inferior- and if they used the same steel then that would be a moot point.

Also- the process of button rifling does produce stress on a barrel. I've been told that through a process called "normalizing" (which I think is different than cryo but not sure) that you can relieve the stress. Cut barrels are also hand lapped -- so if you are going to go through all the processes on a button barrel that is needed to make it "equal" to a cut barrel- then you have just added a bunch of expense that makes them about the same cost. The thing is- most companies don't do all those things.... so most button barrels are inferior to cut.

And I don't think that you can gain twist a button barrel? (maybe?) but I know that's becoming popular..... and I've also been told that Bartlein has a new super hard barrel steel that has double the barrel life- but it can't be buttoned..... but no first hand knowledge on that.

[Dave Hoback]

I don’t know who told you this, but it’s 100% false. Doesn’t matter what rifling process is used, it’s the same steel. Barrel companies don’t make steel. They by 416 SS (mostly), and/or 4140 Alloy steel. The steel is shipped to the barrel maker as Round Billets. Typically, the longer the Billets, the cheaper the cost. The steel doesn’t come harder or softer. It’s all supplied as annealed, which is steel in its softest form. The billets get cut & are heat treated to the makers specifications. When talking about “hardness” understand that rifle parts are all pretty soft as steel parts go. As a custom Knifemaker, I heat treat & temper my steel blades in the high 50’s to low 60’s HRC. In the world of firearms, the steel is heat treated & tempered in the 30’s… maybe 40 on the HRC scale. This is butter soft to a knife maker! But is necessary as 60hrc, even 50’s, would be far to brittle against the shock of firearm fire. (By the way… steel being hard or soft has no bearing on it’s strength or toughness.) After machining and rifling, the barrels are once again stress relieved (tempered), because no matter how the rifling is done; Cut, Button, CHF… stress is induced into the steel. A tempering relieves this stress. Of course each company has their own specs, places of doing what steps(besides final stress relieving at the end), and I don’t know them.. but I know they MUST follow the same guidelines as everyone else for using steel to make parts. It must be heat treated & tempered after annealing. And as far as buying the steel, they buy from the same places. I can tell you every major US steel supplier (maker) in the country if you like. And I can tell you which ones the top barrel makers likely use because I know which are best. That is, most consistent.

[Whynot]

I don’t know who told you this, but it’s 100% false. Doesn’t matter what rifling process is used, it’s the same steel. Barrel companies don’t make steel. They by 416 SS (mostly), and/or 4140 Alloy steel. The steel is shipped to the barrel maker as Round Billets. Typically, the longer the Billets, the cheaper the cost. The steel doesn’t come harder or softer. It’s all supplied as annealed, which is steel in its softest form. The billets get cut & are heat treated to the makers specifications. When talking about “hardness” understand that rifle parts are all pretty soft as steel parts go. As a custom Knifemaker, I heat treat & temper my steel blades in the high 50’s to low 60’s HRC. In the world of firearms, the steel is heat treated & tempered in the 30’s… maybe 40 on the HRC scale. This is butter soft to a knife maker! But is necessary as 60hrc, even 50’s, would be far to brittle against the shock of firearm fire. (By the way… steel being hard or soft has no bearing on it’s strength or toughness.) After machining and rifling, the barrels are once again stress relieved (tempered), because no matter how the rifling is done; Cut, Button, CHF… stress is induced into the steel. A tempering relieves this stress. Of course each company has their own specs, places of doing what steps(besides final stress relieving at the end), and I don’t know them.. but I know they MUST follow the same guidelines as everyone else for using steel to make parts. It must be heat treated & tempered after annealing. And as far as buying the steel, they buy from the same places. I can tell you every major US steel supplier (maker) in the country if you like. And I can tell you which ones the top barrel makers likely use because I know which are best. That is, most consistent.

You state a lot of opinions as facts.... and that is 100% a fact. The idea that all of the steel is the same is incorrect- you as much as say that in your reply because you say that you know which suppliers are the best? If someone is the best then that means others are inferior or at least different?? Having machined enough metal it is not uncommon for the exact same rated steel to have very different characteristics when machining.

Out of curiosity I did a little research and one of the first pages that came up when searching "cut vs button rifling" is an article by Patriot Valley Arms that very closely mimics what I was told by the person that had actually made barrels- even down to the part about different hardness of steels being used. The person I talked to was not affiliated with this company or the barrels that they use.... so at least 2 barrel makers feel this way- so once again hard to say it's 100% false!

On a side note- you would probably like the article because they believe that button (when done correctly) is every bit as good as cut.... the only issue being that most companies do not do it correctly.

[charlie b]

Dave,

Just so you know, I'm 70 and I shoot bench and supported prone (ie bipod) better now than I did in my 20's. I can't do position anymore due to tremors, but, I did keep getting better until I hit my 60's. Mainly because I could practice more since I had more funds available.

If you just go look at their web sites many of the barrel makers describe their processes. Krieger for example specifies that the do NOT heat treat a barrel, before or after rifling. Their claim is that their rifling process induces no stresses that need to be relieved. The vendor they receive the barrel steel from makes it to spec with any necessary heat treating. Krieger does a thorough QC on them to make sure it meets their spec.

Sorry it is not anecdotal but you can read it yourself on their site.

[Dave Hoback]

Edit: Decided it’s not worth it.

[Dave Hoback]

Ditto

[charlie b]

I am glad you agree with yourself. What I pointed out that they did NOT heat treat AFTER machining as you claimed. You can not believe that if you want. Since you haven't made a barrel I don't know if that means anything. And no, not all specific steels are the same. The mfg process is not perfect and one batch may be a bit off from the next. That's why a mfg has to test each batch they receive to make sure it is meeting their specific requirements. You might be surprised at how often that happens. Doesn't even count if the barrel maker decides to order something slightly different that the 'standard' steels or a different heat treat. At one time some of the barrel makers were ordering steel that had been through a cryogenic treatment.

Just for grins I did some work for you. Checked the IBS match results for this year and equipment used. These numbers are not exact since it depends on which match but across several the balance was about the same. I did not sort by how each placed in the respective matches.

100/200yd Kreiger was favored the most, about 30%, Hart was next 20%, Bartlein 10%, others (Lederer, Brux, etc)

600yd Kreiger 40%, Bartlein and HH were both 20%, then Brux, Broughton, Lederer, and, yes, a Shilen (that shooter placed in the 5th and 6th place a few times).

1000yd Kreiger and Bartlein basically split with a few Brux and some others sprinkled in there, including at least one made by the shooter. The data on 1000yd was not conclusive since only a couple matches listed equipment.

But, when I looked at the cast bullet assn match results it was a bit different (CBA matches are 100 and 200yd). I was specifically looking at 30BR equipment (it is very popular, about 90% of the shooters use it). Lilja was 13, Krieger 2, Hart 4, McGowan 2, Lederer 1, Shilen 3, McMillan 1, Borden 1, Broughton 1

This is just an idea about how the distribution of barrel mfgs is across only these disciplines. I did not look at PRS or other long range events. And, this is not exact. I did not try to sort out people who shot at more than one range. Just a WAG kinda thing.

PS just go to the barrel mfg web sites and read how they make barrels. Don't take my word for it. Do some research on it.

From Bartlein:
Each type of steel has strengths and weaknesses.
-C.M. must be used for some of the lighter contours of barrels. C.M is also needed for customers wanting to "blue" the steel. C.M. is more likely to rust if not properly cleaned and stored.
-Our standard stainless steel covers 95% of the barrels that we run. It is the most widely used material for target and hunting purposes. It is possible to rust if not properly cleaned and stored but far less likely than C.M.
-Mod400 is a Bartlein Barrel exclusive and was designed to achieve longer barrel life. Mod400 is still a 400 series stainless so no new tooling or machine speeds are needed.

Note that their CM steel is 4140 and stainless is 416R along with their Mod400.

[Dave Hoback]

Too funny.


Bottom line for anyone… if you want to pay $200-$300 more for an aftermarket Savage Barrel & believe it makes you more accurate, go for it! Hey, I’ve often spoken of the power of mind. Just in how there is power in the placebo effect. I simply know different, that no barrel beyond a standard premium line, is going to make me any more accurate. (Especially as I get older. LOL!)


Oh yeah, we’ve done this dance before. Look at my answer here & how it hasn’t changed.
https://www.savageshooters.com/showt...cement-barrels

[charlie b]

....I simply know different, that no barrel beyond a standard premium line, is going to make me any more accurate. (Especially as I get older. LOL!)....

YES!!!!!

[Fuj']

One thing about barrels is "Follow the leader". Shillen got a big boost in reputation from Tony Boyer
winning everything with it. Well ol' Tony switched to Bartlein when they came on line, and more magic
started happening. All of a sudden, Bartlien was top dog. Well hell, If everyone races a Ford, I'm sure
a Ford is going to win. So, What I'm getting at is, percentages really mean nothing since it's mainly
follow the leader. Each barrel has it's own quirks, and you still have to feed it what it likes. The magic
happens at the loading bench and reading the wind.

[charlie b]

Tis true. The percentages do show that button rifling is still a force in the short range game.

I'd wonder why Boyer switched? Did he do better after? Was it just in his head? Or did Barlein make him a deal?

With so few statistics it is hard to tell.

[GrenGuy]

Tis true. The percentages do show that button rifling is still a force in the short range game.

I'd wonder why Boyer switched? Did he do better after? Was it just in his head? Or did Barlein make him a deal?

With so few statistics it is hard to tell.

The top “COMPETITIVE” shooters never stop experimenting.

[South Prairie jim]

Criterion makes a good barrel, pre fits in my opinion are more about the consistency of the reamer being used and the guy operating the lathe. Button rifle barrels can be just as good as cut rifle barrels. I choose Krieger for long range competition use because they are incredibly consistent from blank to blank, waiting 14 months for your Krieger order to be filled is just part of the game so plan ahead.

[Dave Hoback]

He switched because he was attracted to gain rifling. It had nothing to do with Cut vs Button rifling. Here’s a great Q&A interview with Tony & Faye Boyer. https://precisionshooting.com/psm_2009_08_frame-html/

[Robinhood]

If all steels and alloys of the same or similar content are the same why do so many companies require mill certs and traceability on the raw materials the use? Spending ones working life of over 40 years in a manufacturing setting of products that are involved in dangerous environment, teaches you things that a hobby doesn't. I have drilled into annealed 1045 carbon steel cold roll and found hard spots that I could not penetrate with a HSS drill bit. I have machined 316 and found soft and hard spots. The same material from a better supplier has never shown signs of hard or soft spots.


As whynot stated, Opinions(and supposition) are not facts. It is irresponsible to pass them off as such. I suggest that people compare your opinions to those of Barret Obermeyer or others. Maybe even Frank from Bartlein could offer some clarity. There are people that have learned a tremendous amount by doing. I respect those people. It is hard to respect someone that has never done something, but sells wolf cookies to the unknowing just to garner some appreciation from the ignorant.

[Dave Hoback]

Something Tony said I thought was interesting. He says he doesn’t practice until the wind starts blowing. And there was no point wasting a good barrel in calm wind. That just grabbed my attention.

[Robinhood]

The OP asked about help finding a barrel and mentioned these suppliers:

I've looked at the Criterion, Pac-Nor, Proof, X-Caliber, Preferred, McGowen, etc. There's just so many options out there.

For most regular Joe's like me and 90 percent of the other guys, It is a short list but those will be good enough for all but top competition and some of them have done well there also.

[charlie b]

One reason I posted the statistics was to show that guy with the Shilen barrel. He outshot many with more expensive barrels. Could he have performed better with another barrel? Maybe. Or maybe not. Maybe he has enough confidence in that barrel that he does better with that brand.

The other part of those statistics can have to do with availability. If they need a new barrel and Krieger is the only one available then will they go with it? Yep, I realize that the top shooters have barrels sitting on the shelf waiting to go and some may even get preferential treatment.

Cut rifled are said to last longer. Don't know if it is true. Even Krieger doesn't claim it, he mentions that is what his customers say. So, that I would put in the anecdotal category until one of the high volume distance shooters comes up with some data on it.

And, yes, if I do get another barrel for my cast shooter it will be a button rifled, Lilja, Hart, etc. It is for short range (relative) and lifetime doesn't matter.

I do miss Frank's input on the forum. He was a wealth of information as well.

[Dave Hoback]

These debates are so funny to me. For 20 years I’ve heard the same argument in the AR15 crowd between standard button & cold hammer forged. Only a few bring up up cut rifling there. The believers will swear up & down CHF lasts longer & is more accurate & blah, blah, blah. Another popular debate is AR bolts made from C158 (Carpenter), vs 9310. They’ll swear the 158 bolts are better because that milspec! Even though people who actually know steel know that 9310 is a tougher, more wear resistant alloy. (Nothing to do with “hardness” once again.) And yet another argument among knife users. (And makers). That Forged knives are stronger than Stock Removal blades. I’m sure a couple here believe this lie.

The refusal to be part of the herd and simply believe what they tell ya, is how I’ve come to be able to do the things I can.

[South Prairie jim]

Y’all need to get along a bit more and stop trying to out do each other. One reason the long range BR community respects each other and shares information well is because we know how much work it takes to compete at a high level, we test everything and find what works for our program and even if we have a poor performance on match day we still take pride in seeing our buddies shoot well, not every one anneals or uses a certain type press or whatever that is but we learn from others equally well.

try it sometime, it’s easier than my way or the highway.
shoot small yall
J

[PhilC]

Let's get back to JBpooh's question...please.

[GrenGuy]

Let's get back to JBpooh's question...please.

Thanks Phil ! Thought it would never happen