Weighing Brass

[charlie b]

You guys are going to drag me further down the rabbit hole. :)

[GrenGuy]

You guys are going to drag me further down the rabbit hole. :)

Yes charlie, next measure “PRIMER HEIGHT”. Otherwise, uniforming primer pockets is moot

[South Prairie jim]

I agree with Your method Jeep. I would call it “Sorting by Point of Impact”. Precision reloads need to be Fire Formed anyway, so why not sort according to the results after that process.

If a fella sorts by point of impact, you’ll certainly need a good set of wind flags and know how to read them.

[charlie b]

Yes charlie, next measure “PRIMER HEIGHT”. Otherwise, uniforming primer pockets is moot

OK now you are just being MEAN! LOL

[GrenGuy]

Yes charlie, next measure “PRIMER HEIGHT”. Otherwise, uniforming primer pockets is moot

Agreed. I’ve pretty much always been a “picker”. Just never been able to “run” a condition with My Savage action. So watching the flags is a must.

[GrenGuy]

OK now you are just being MEAN! LOL

When the bug bites, ain’t no end to it

[charlie b]

Until I got the new barrel I just kinda accepted my mediocre loads. 1/2MOA was just fine with a 3/4 or even a 1.0 thrown in just to irritate me. Then I started getting some groups in the 0.2 or 0.3 range. Not often, just enough to make me want more. So, I find myself doing strange things, like marking cases that show a vel out of norm. I already trued primer pockets and now I find I'll probably get rid of some fliers if I weigh and measure primers. Does it ever end? :)

So....not to poke the hornet's nest....do you guys weight sort bullets as well? What about 'pointing'? FYI, I am using the Vapor Trail 'cheap' bullets.

And, yeah wind flags. Just happens that I am the guy at our range that puts up wind flags at 100yd steps out to 1000yd. So far the maintenance folks don't mess with them. I am still not very good at translating them into dope.

[South Prairie jim]

I don’t weigh bullets but for long range I do sort them starting at base to seating stem then base to ogive in .002 increments and those that qualify I’ll sort finally by overall length into equally small increments shoot them in there prospective groups as record rounds. VTac 103 gr are really quite good just not as good as the hand swaged that Tom makes, those many guys just load straight out of the box while others sort overall length for 1000/ long range. Added; just to complete my thought here, the reason I sort btss and bto is so when I adjust my seater .001 the relationship to the lands adjust the same amount while overall length affects BC.
what matters when seating primers is to ensure they are seated to the bottom of the pocket plus a slight crush, testing the amount of crush that your ignition prefers is quite easy with an adjustable primer seating tool like Sinclair or 21st century by increasing crush until you see the result you like on the target.

[charlie b]

Thanks Jim. I had not considered bullet ogive length before. Makes sense to do so. One of these days I'll try Tom's hand made bullets.

I hand seat primers and try to get a consistent force on them since that affects how the anvil seats against the pocket. I never considered crush or consistent depth to be that critical.

[South Prairie jim]

Thanks Jim. I had not considered bullet ogive length before. Makes sense to do so. One of these days I'll try Tom's hand made bullets.

I hand seat primers and try to get a consistent force on them since that affects how the anvil seats against the pocket. I never considered crush or consistent depth to be that critical.

Your very welcome, when I first got my 21st century hand primer tool ( off a prize table 2021 long range nationals) and began using it, the feel is like having power steering or power brakes over manual meaning the feel of the primer seating was subtle. I mentioned this to a buddy and he suggested to increase depth per click because his experience had differed. With that advice I began and discovered I was just touching bottom and hadn’t actually applied crush, continuing a few clicks at a time the crush was evident and I found improvements on paper with regards to group consistency and size.

[charlie b]

Makes sense to me. My cast bullet loads are sensitive to primers, ie, some hang fire just enough to be noticeable. I think I will try this with them too and see if things improve. Large case ~55% load density. They don't do it when shooting jacketed.

[Palmafiddleman]

I will weigh new brass, but after sizing and prep work is done. For example I bought 100 pcs of Starline .308 and while weighing them I set them up on my kitchen counter by weight and the result looks like a normal bell shaped graph. I think the max spread was about 2 to 2.5 grains. I separated into two lots, the lighter side and heavier side, and then split the center line of cases, half to each the lighter and heavier groups. That cut the max spread in half. Probably me being a little OC but it makes me feel good. This has been my method for quite a while. Realistically though I should focus more on neck tension consistency as that will probably improve the velocity SD more than weight. Has it improved my scores? Not sure. Maybe the better strategy is to not waste time on the weighing exercise and use it to improve my wind reading skills. Ha.

[Rocketvapor]

I typically get a couple outside a bell distribution, and just put them back in the box, for later :)
Loading for a match, about 70 rounds, I will group each relay tight.
If any difference, sighters should take care of it.

[Dave Hoback]

I don’t worry about weighing brass anymore. I used to, but decided it just wasn’t enjoyable. The reloading game can become a hole that just never stops. From weighing brass, to weighing & separating individual projectiles & even primers! I’ve even heard crazy, obsessive disorder behavior of counting individual grains of powder. I don’t mean grains as in measure of weight, but rather the individual UNITS or PIECES of powder! I mean, seriously? I actually enjoy reloading. I find it relaxing…calming of the mind. But I’m not in competition. And nothing is riding on my shooting.

So I stopped. Because those aspects weren’t enjoyable, I found.

[CFJunkie]

I too have no data that says variation of a several 10ths of a grain among the same headstamp brass makes any difference in accuracy.
Then again, I have shot only Lapua brass in both of the rifles listed below so the case weight variation, even between lots, is not a factor.
I have made the same conclusion for weight variations among a particular bullet types in the same caliber from the same manufacturer.
I mostly only use high quality match bullets. That conclusion might not be valid for some bargain bullets.
That said, the difference in 100 groups and all groups results from barrel preferences for bullet weights and powders.

Both of theses rifles have the benefit of lots of data loading other rifles in their calibers, so the bullets used are the ones that previously have performed best in other rifles.
That also might have eliminated bullets with large variation in weight within a particular lot.

My newest .223 12 FV with over 1050 5-round groups down the tube averages .282 and 0.245 for the best 100 loads (402 groups).
My newest 6.5mm CM 12 FV with over 645 5-round groups down the tube averages 0.339 and under 0.309 for the best 100 loads (385 groups).
The top 100 loads are the bullet-powder combinations that each barrel prefers.

Measured case and bullet weights early in my shooting these rifles and have concluded that variations in case weights have no statistically significant effect on average group size.
Most of my variation comes from the nut behind the trigger.


A suspicion about the occasional flyers being experienced by Rocketvapor's wife.
I have determined that the occasional flyer that we all experience may be more from variations in set up than from the bullet or powder being used.
I have measured that 1/8 inch variation if eye relief can cause up to 1/4 inch variation in bullet impact point.
(I had too short a stock on a very accurate rifle and found I was sneaking up on the scope due to resetting after recoil).
An adjustable stock solved that problem.

In experimenting after that revelation, I also found that being off the optical center of a scope causes horizontal impacts in expected point of impact because the angle variation between the reticle and the optical plane causes mis-aiming. Sometimes the reticle wasn't actually aiming where I thought it was.
My solution was to get the reticle on my aim point, then lean my head back until the black ring appears around the perimeter of the scope image. If the ring isn't concentric I move my head until the ring is perfectly concentric and move my head forward until the ring just disappears. That gets my eye in the center of the optical plane and as close to the same eye relief as I can determine.

I was astonished how far off the aim point the point of impact can be if I didn't make sure that my aim point was where the barrel was actually aimed.
If I get over confident and repeat that process, within a few rounds I will probably experience a flyer.
My suspicion is that my set up position is being impacted by recoil and I am not correcting for it.

I hope this helps.

[Dave Hoback]

Very well said CF. I agree. I think believe the Human Factor is more of an influence the these minute inconsistencies.

[Rocketvapor]

I agree, in secret :)
She is getting better, but even with the Savage Bolt 22N she still has a flier or two.

Jan-2024 100 yds.


Feb-2024 600 yds

A few different causes for not cleaning a target.
Those 9's steal points in a match

[South Prairie jim]

Very well said CF. I agree. I think believe the Human Factor is more of an influence the these minute inconsistencies.

mostly true, but couple human error with accuracy left in the reloading room and the chances of placing well at a competition get slim noting that the margins separating the top ten are even slimmer.

[charlie b]

Problem is as the groups get smaller then smaller things matter. Used to do failure analysis on designs. Simple things like tolerances of fitting parts stack up and can cause issues with overall system level performance. Same thing here. If enough tolerances stack up against you then you get a flier. You may have 5 or even 10 rounds on top of each other and then one is off by a significant amount.

And, yeah, if the user can't hold well enough then all the precision in the tool doesn't matter. I am still working on the 'me' part to keep up with the tool. :)

Was just shooting again this morning. Got back and marked cases that had fliers or velocities out of the norm. Only one was a 'repeat' so it got tossed. FWIW, the Peterson brass is running neck and neck with the Lapua.

[Fuj']

Problem is as the groups get smaller then smaller things matter.

"Yes Sir" !! This all adds up to help the mental game also.