Need help, can't figure out what is wrong with my groupings...

[axio]

Hi everyone,

I just wanted to thank you guys ahead of time for your input. I had what was originally a Model 11 .308. I have since upgraded a few items… I switched out the trigger to the SSS Comp Trigger, it’s currently sitting at about 1lb of trigger pull. Next, the stock was replaced to the Choate Tactical stock. It’s sitting on a Harris 6-9” bipod. The barrel is a Shilen Match Grade barrel. 1-10” twist, 24”, varmint. It is sitting on the original scope mount that came with the packaged gun, I have loctite’d those down with the blue Loctite so it isn’t permanent but remains snug. Burris XTR rings hold the SWFA SS 10x scope.

When I clean, I use a Hoppes aluminum three piece rod, copper brush, and a bore guide.

The ammo I’m using is Federal Match Sierra Match King BTHP 168gr.

I installed the barrel myself using a Forstner go-gauge.

The barrel is very free floated, I noticed the left edge of the tang wasn’t too free floating so I took a file and shaved down part of the Choate stock a little. It is now more free floating than before.

I’m frustrated because at best, I was getting 1” 5 shot groups at 100 yards. I could get slightly under 1” three shot groups. When I do 10 shot groups, I’m hitting about 1.5” to 2”. The last two times at the range, my 5 shot groups were approaching 2 inches… I’m very frustrated in that I can’t get the groups smaller. I was hoping you guys could give me advice on what could be wrong.

Could it be the Shilen barrel? Could it be shooting technique? Did I shave off too much from the stock’s tang area, or not enough? Could it be that I’m using factory ammo, despite it being match grade ammo? All of the screws mounting the rifle to the stock seem very tight. I’m shooting using the bipod on a bench, supported by a sandbag at the rear. Sometimes I will need to pinch the sandbag to adjust elevation, but otherwise it seems fairly supported. I really appreciate your help… I have no tools to gauge if the barrel is bad or not. Also, I’ve only put there about 200-250 rounds in it. I try to clean it every fifty rounds or so with both Hoppes solvent and Slip “something” copper solvent.

[tammons]

I would start off by replacing the scope base with a quality one piece base.
I doubt that is the problem, but you could not give me a 2 piece scope base
after I saw what they did on a Browning 243 BLR. Darn thing shot all over the place.
After I put a dednutz mount on it, it now shoots tight.

1" to 2" sounds like it could be the bipod. Are you preloading it ??
I would take the bipod off for now and shoot off a front and rear rest.

If it still shoots open, I would try some black hills match ammo next
and maybe verify the scope.

How about paralax ??
Sure yuou got that set correctly.
Seems like I remember My ss scope was off in parallax

If it still shoots open I would at least bed the recoil lug to make sure the recoil is not being transferred to the action screws.
You may want to do that first or just bed the entire stock.

Last ditch effort, I would shoot a box of 50 tubbs FF bullets through it.

After all that it should shoot 1/4" 3 shot groups if everything else is good.
I think 10 rapid shots will probably open up some due to barrel heat.

Somewhere in there you might want to try some Berger or lapua Scenecar known accuracy loads.

[axio]

Thanks, I will try to order a bench rest and a one-piece scope base in the next few nights. Since I have a short action receiver, is the distance between the two base mounting holes the same across all Savage short action receivers? Mine is with the DBM, so I know the two screw holes on the bottom to mount it to the stock is slightly different than a short action without the DBM, but what about the scope bases?

Regarding the bipod, I do not preload it. I did try to preload it a few times yesterday but the harris pod slipped a little on the wooden bench at times, and at other times, i couldn't figure out the right amount of pressure to apply forward. I will try to order a bench rest and take the bipod off and see if that helps narrow down the problem.

I have tried a few black hills match ammo with similar results, although i do notice it to have slightly (maybe 1/4") smaller groups.

I think the parallax setting is correct. I've set it to the 100 yard setting on the scope, which is the range i'm currently shooting it at.

The Choate tactical stock has the V-blocks that I attach the rifle to the stock with. I was under the impression I don't bed these?

If I bed the recoil lug, so i just put some bedding compound where the stock meets the recoil lug and screw screw the whole thing down? i understand i would need to apply a releasing agent to the recoil lug as well. that's it?

[tammons]

Should be he same if it was built in the last several years.
I think the last change was from a flatback to the current round back and that was a while ago.
Not sure 100% on the date though.

EGW makes a decent base that is not too expensive.

The bipod is probably a large part of the problem.
I read that a lot. Bad groups what going on and as soon as they go to a rest or bags the groups cut in half.

Out of curiosity are they all over the place, left right or stringing ??

For parallax - set it and move your head back and forth and if the image moves then its not set right.
I think mine was on at around the 75 yard mark or so. That was a SS 20X.

I would not bed it yet. I would hate to dremel into that aluminum bed.

I had a choate ultimate varmint stock on a factory action with a midway Shilen 6mm bR barrel and it would shoot 3/4" groups at 300 yards. It would put one through the same hole every now and then.

That said I had a machined recoil lug, SSS trigger, farrel base, burris extreme rings and a nightforce 12-42X scope.
No other work though. Didnt even torque the action bolts.

I dont think I would bed the choate stock yet especially with an aluminum V bedding block.
Just put a machined recoil lug on it and make sure the bolts are centered in the holes.
If one is binding front or back it could cause problems.

You can do that with a long 1/4x28 bolt and see how it centers.

[~Ace~]

Buy a Swivel Stud and replace one the the Screws that hold the Bipod Rail to the stock with the Stud and a few Washers, Attach the Bipod to it. The factory Slider is NOT worth a crap for Precision shooting.

Are you torquing the action bolts to 65 INCH lbs ? if not, you need to

Replace the POS Scope Bases... NOW

Have you Re Checked the headspace ?

Clamp a board, or Temp Screw a 1X2 to the bench to load the bipod against, or, better yet, get Off the bench and shoot prone....

If that does not help, Try the FGMM 175 Grain.

[82boy]

Welcome to the site.

From reading your post I can pick a few things out of it that I would change. To start, throw the Hoppes solvent and 3 piece aluminum cleaning rod, where they belong, in the trash. The slip 2000 I have never messed with, but I would look for a quality cleaner like Shooters Choice, Butches bore shine, sweets, or Bore Tec Eliminator. Something that will get the copper, and carbon out. GET A ONE PIECE QUALITY ROD! (Like Dewey, or pro shot.)

There is nothing wrong with the factory scope mounts, I use them all the time, and have won many match's with them, they are not pretty but they work. Don't worry about stock screw bolt torque ratings, or free floating the tang. The barrel should be free floated. I would recamend getting a rest I have never shot a good group off of a bi-pod. Make sure the paralax is set correctly, just because the scope say 100 yards doesn't mean it is set paralax free. Don't pay attention to the numbers, Turn the paralax adjustment until it looks clear, then start moving your head around and get it to where the crosshairs don't move. If you have another scope to try, do so. 9 times out of 10 most accuracy problems come from bad scopes. Just because it is new, or such a name brand doesn't mean it is good.

From what I am reading I don't believe that any of the equipment is the problem. Have you had someone else with experience shoot the gun? I would say your biggest problem is the ammo, I would say the barrel just doesn't like it; Try different ammo. I would say that from reading your post that you are a newer shooter. The main thing is to stop changing things on the gun. You have top notch equipment! I think more than anything you need to get some trigger time. I would also state that a 308 is no round for a beginner, it will develop bad habits, I would also contribute this to the problem. I would say that it is possible that you have developed a flinch from anticipating the recoil, this will make the gun shoot all kinds of wild, I have seen it many times.

[axio]

Thanks for the help, guys.

Tammons, it seems like the first shot will hit bullseye, and then the next few shots will go slightly low, and then slightly left. That's not all the time, but I did notice that yesterday more often than not.

Ace, I have not rechecked the headspace, but that's a good idea. Hopefully nothing came loose somehow...

82boy, that's good to hear that your factory mounts are working great. I suppose I can hold off on the single piece base for now to save some money and see if the rest helps first. It looks like you all agree that a bipod is not the route for precision shooting and that a rest is the wayto go...

I will also go order a good cleaning rod and solvent/copper cleaner.

Yes, I am a newer shooter. I have shot handguns for about 10 years, but I am pretty new to rifle shooting. To be honest, this is much more interesting and much more challenging. I do find that I sometimes anticipate the recoil... would the described pattern above go along with that? Unfortunately my friend I go shooting with is as new to rifles as I am, and he has an LR-308 that shoots even slightly larger groupings that mine. We use the same Federal Match SMK ammo...

[axio]

Ok, just ordered some Butch's cleaning solvent, a Dewey coated one piece rod, and an Uncle Mike's swivel. I'll give the barrel a good cleaning with the solution, take the bipod off, and put her on the sandbags at the range and see if I can get those groups a little smaller. If I'm lucky, my friend can hopefully bring his rest. I will try to stop anticipating recoil as well... if possible. I'm sure as 82boy has mentioned, my technique (or rather the lack of) has a lot to do with it as well...

If that still fails with the rest, perhaps I will get the EGW base just to help eliminate anything else, and pick up nicer ammo than the Federal Match factory ammo. I probably will not have time to make it until Thanksgiving weekend...

[hipakane]

are you using the factory recoil lug you might want to replace it with an aftermarket lug.

[josebd]

u need to get something like sweets 7.62 to get the copper out

[82boy]

To solve anticipating recoil problems. When shooting place all your focus on the crosshairs of the scope, before you fire live rounds place the crosshair on the target and dry fire (Without ammo) the gun. The crosshairs should not move, as the trigger is pulled. After you accomplish this the next step would involve your friend. Have you friend load the gun. Have your friend at random place either a live of fired round into the chamber, (The point behind this is to suprise you, you don't want to know what is comming) fire a string of rounds, when doing this place 100% of your concentration on the crosshairs, the gun should be like a rock. When you get the a dud round see if the crosshairs move, if they do, you have a problem, your flinching.

When the gun is set up, it should be on target without touching it. Watch your breathing and how you touch the rifle. In all honesty, I would put the 308 away and get a 22LR. Shoot groups at 25, 50, and then 100 yards. Get to the point where you can shoot one hole groups, and then move out, don't expect to shoot one hole groups at 100 yards.

One last word of advise, use wind flags. If you are shooting without windflags you are wasting your time. Wind flags don't have to be elaborate or expensive. A few pieces of surveyors ribbon on a stick will do wonders. You can get surveyors tape at Menard's, Lowes, Walmart and other stores it is cheap. Cut a section off about 1 foot long and tie it to a piece of dowel rod, do this three times, place your flags out at 15, 30, and 75 yards. place them just to the the left of your rifle bore line to the target, so that you can see them when you are behind your rifle. If you want a better working flag take the dowel rod drill a hole in the center of it about 1 inch deep, take a piece of wire (Like a coat hanger) cut it off about 3 inches long bend it in the middle at 90 degrees, place it in the hole in the dowel rod and then tie your tape to the other side of the wire. The main this is look at the flags, which the direction of the tails, and the intensity of the wind, when you find a condition that repeats and hold for a long time shoot in that condition, but the second things change stop shooting.

[axio]

hipakane, yeah, i switched out to a Northland Supply machined recoil lug at the same time i switched the barrel. Josebd, think the Butch's should do the job as well? I think it was a two-in-one solution, like 82boy said.

82boy, good idea on the random rounds to help analyze my shooting. Perhaps I will avoid the 100 yard line for now as well. Regarding windage flags, i will ask the range if they are ok with that. I don't see why they wouldn't be ok with it if I pick up the windage sticks. Would a distance of even 100 yards be effected by wind though? Sorry for asking, I'm a complete novice at this.

Secondly, would a benchrest like this caldwell work?

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct...tnumber=838651

It seems light weight and cheap, I didn't want to break the bank on a rest... If this will help hold the gun steady while I shoot, think it should be good enough to help analyze the problem vs using sandbags supplied by the range and trying to get a good repeatable position? Is this rest not good enough and I should spring for the Caldwell Rock front rest?

[tammons]

If you are flinching then I would say that and the bipod are 90% of your problem.

Go to the range with a friend and let him load your gun and slip in a dummy round every now and then.
Let him watch you shoot.
If you are flinching you will notice it and he will see it in the dummy round.

Its a lot more common than you think and with a loaded round you will not know if you are flinching or not.
One thing that will help is a past pad.

The other is concentration on squeezing the trigger which is a lot harder than it sounds.

I think most people tighten up when they flinch, IE grip the rifle harder or pull it in.
On lighter calibers I like to shoot free recoil off a rest with a super light trigger and that helps me a lot.

[tammons]

There are a plethora of rest types.

http://www.exploreproducts.com/gunre...otingrests.htm

I like a front rest with an elevation adjustment and a rear bag.

I mostly use a rock jr just beacuse I wanted something light and small but I dont use it for
serious bench shooting.

If you are going to get seriious about bench shooting I would get a larger more expensive front rest with adjustable feet.
I have the leather rear bag.

Nice part about an adjustable front rest is you can settle the rear of the stock in the back bag and crank up the front elevation with the front rest to get on target.

Still I see people at the range shooting all sorts of setups.
Some people just drop their carry bag on top of the bench and use that.

[82boy]

Would a distance of even 100 yards be effected by wind though? Sorry for asking, I'm a complete novice at this.

O' you better believe it! Wind affects everything from a football running back, to airplains, to yes even bullets. There is two schools of thought on wind; Many older shooters believe the wind closest to the muzzle affects the bullet the most in its flight, some of the newer top shooters (Such as Mike Ratagin) credit the last section (near the target) to have the most affect by wind. The fact is, THE WIND DOES GREATLY AFFECT BULLET IMPACT! Intensity and angle of the wind will change bullet impact from horizontal to vertical, and everything else in between. In my opinion a faster and flatter shooting round (Like a 22/250) will be less affected by the wind, but it is still greatly impacted by the wind. The longer range you shoot, the more the wind affects the bullet, at 1000 yards it is not uncommon for the bullet to impact other peoples targets, with wind pushing the bullets several feet. At close rage the wind still affects bullets, even pistol shooters realize the affects of wind.

Secondly, would a benchrest like this caldwell work?
Is this rest not good enough and I should spring for the Caldwell Rock front rest?

IMO Stay away from caldwell, I have never seen one rest they make that has impressed me. Out of all there rest i would say the best is a rock, but if your going to buy a rest, buy the best you can afford. Buy it once and forget it. If your looking for a good low priced alternative, check out Graff and Sons rest imported from England, smartreloader. It is nice stuff from what I have seen.
http://www.grafs.com/retail/

This is the rest I was talking about.
http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/...t/productId/68
A better choice.
http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/...t/productId/66

If you want a GREAT rest, that will last you your entire life, then buy a Sinclair.
http://www.sinclairintl.com/
This is a great rest! This is what 90% of competition benchrest shooters use.
http://www.sinclairintl.com/.aspx/pi...e_Windage_Rest
The light weight rest are not bad.
http://www.sinclairintl.com/.aspx/pi...ghtweight_Rest

Either rest would need a bag, and the best around is Protektor.
http://protektormodel.com/

This should fit the bill.
http://protektormodel.com/02.htm

[82boy]

A few other thing to pay attention to that will affect your groups is one Light level, and mirage. Watch for the sun going in and out of clouds, time of day, and other light changes. Mirage you may not notice it much on 10 power but pay attention to what it is ding. Never shoot in a boil.

[axio]

Thanks for the help, guys. I'll be looking online to find a rest and rear bag tonight. I'll definitely go ahead with the windage sticks. Just spoke with my friend and he remembered seeing people put them up out there so I guess the range should be ok with it.

I'll report back in a week and a half. I hope the rest arrives by then so I can take it out on the Sunday. HOPEFULLY I will be able to come back with pictures of tighter groups...

[Captain Finlander]

Are you letting the barrel cool down between shots? What your describing sounds like hot barrel issues to me.

My 1/2 minute reloads will group inside a 1/2" all day long so long as I let the barrel cool between shots. If I rapid fire 5 and 10 shot strings my groups open to 1" at 100 yards with a hot barrel. Your starting out with a 1" group and opening to 2" which sounds normal for a hot barrel.

The bipod is also a poor rest for paper accuracy. You are much better off with a solid rest.

Scope and bases are also a possibility but behind the others listed.

[axio]

Hmm... i think i will basically shoot 7-10 rounds during the 15 minute firing period. Does that sound too fast? I do try to feel the barrel with my hand, and it feels warms, but never hot.

[Captain Finlander]

Yes. one round a minute is considered rapid fire for what were talking about.

[axio]

wow.... complete n00b mistake.... how much time would you guys put in between shots? 3-4 minutes good enough?

[Captain Finlander]

5 minutes minimum IMO but I've waited as much as 10 or more. Let the barrel tell you, touch it cold, then touch it after one shot, then touch it after a 3 shot string. If your trying to get the smallest group possible your going to let the barrel cool down cold between shots.

Don't let the sun shine on the barrel either. I shoot in Florida and the sun will heat up the barrel from the outside and make cooling it off a real chore.

[axio]

lol wow... good to know.... i will definitely try waiting it out.

ok, ordered a rest... Caldwell Rock... hopefully good enough to just test things out. i don't have plans to get into benchrest competitions as the only range out here in the SF Bay Area I know of only gets out to 200 yards... I also ordered a Karsten cheek rest as I've noticed it's hard for me to get a consistent cheek weld.

[axio]

I noticed something this morning as well. I was looking at the rifle from above. The barrel seems not straight vs the stock. The barrel is closer to one edge vs the other. Basically at the muzzle end of the barrel, the barrel is closer to one side than the other, but otherwise everything is still free-floating.

I'm sure everything is ok with the barrel and action, perhaps the two v-blocks in the Choate tactical stock are not perfectly straight relative to the foreend. This shouldn't be causing any problems, will it? I hope not as I threw the box away a while back.

[Captain Finlander]

The stock is just holding the action and it is not uncommon to have a slightly offset in-letting.