Reloading 6.5 Creedmoor

[Whynot]

Personally I would bump the shoulder more-- the most you could be sizing would be .003 and many of them wouldn't be getting any shoulder bump....

As far as the .004 difference- how accurate are you at measuring? If you measure the same piece of brass (without looking at the readout until you are done) 5 or 10 times do you get the exact same reading? I never did with the Hornady comparators....
The .004 difference is not causing bad groups--

[Ernest T]

Personally I would bump the shoulder more-- the most you could be sizing would be .003 and many of them wouldn't be getting any shoulder bump....

As far as the .004 difference- how accurate are you at measuring? If you measure the same piece of brass (without looking at the readout until you are done) 5 or 10 times do you get the exact same reading? I never did with the Hornady comparators....
The .004 difference is not causing bad groups--

Normally, I'd suspect me more than the Hornady Comparator, but I am pretty good with calipers, micrometers etc as I've got quite a bit of experience rebuilding engines.

I just have questions about reloading and what happens to brass when you fire a gun. My Lapua brass measured anywhere from 1.529 to 1.531 when it was new. I swear it measured 1.536 to 1.538 after the first time it was fired. My Lee case trim gauge trims the brass to 1.912 so this brass has been shoulder bumped and trimmed to that length twice now.

On edit: I resized the new brass before I loaded it, but I didn't measure it after sizing so I don't know if it went straight from 1.529 to 1.5737 on firing or if it ended up somewhere in the middle after sizing. I used the standard setup with a FL sizing die which should have sized it to SAAMI specs.

[Ernest T]

It's been a little cool so I haven't been out to the range this week. I decided to see if I could measure the protrusion of the firing pin and this is what I found. From the end of the bolt to the top of the firing pin is .0475". I kept that measurement and zeroed the gauge and measured the distance to the bolt face. That measurement was .059". Then I closed the caliper, zeroed the gauge, and measured the distance from the end of the bolt to the bolt face. That measurement was .1065 which is close enough to confirm my first two measurements were essentially correct. I'm not sure how accurate my caliper is, but its close enough for this exercise. The protrusion is .059". Is that in spec?

Measurement to the top of the firing pin.





Measurement to the bolt face with after zeroing the gauge.





Measurement from the front of the bolt to the bolt face.

[Ernest T]

Dave is right. Desh shortened the bolt face, as part of the process, but didn’t set the pin pertrusion to .035”. That’s Your job. Put a fired case in Your chamber and pull the trigger. Send us a picture of the primer without the blowback.

Here's the picture you asked for.




What the primer looks like after firing, but before putting the fired case in the chamber and firing it again.



Side by side comparison.

[Ernest T]

I think I got all I can get out of the StaBall 6.5 in my rifle. I tried different loads, different CBTO lengths and except for the one below, none of them seemed to work very well, most were wider than 1", some much wider. Shorter lengths did seem to work better than longer.

This is 42.5 gr. of StaBall 6.5 at 2.163" CBTO. I only had 5 rounds of this load and shot the three at the bottom, then adjusted the scope up two clicks and shot the last two. Move those two down 1/2" and its a pretty good group. I'll try some more of this load.



42.5 grains of StaBall gives me around 2615 FPS average over 20 shots. This group of 8 gave pretty consistent speeds and would be even better without nr. 6. Coincidently, this is pretty close to my best load of RL-16, which performed well. That might be the speed this gun likes.

[celltech]

It's been a little cool so I haven't been out to the range this week. I decided to see if I could measure the protrusion of the firing pin and this is what I found. From the end of the bolt to the top of the firing pin is .0475". I kept that measurement and zeroed the gauge and measured the distance to the bolt face. That measurement was .059". Then I closed the caliper, zeroed the gauge, and measured the distance from the end of the bolt to the bolt face. That measurement was .1065 which is close enough to confirm my first two measurements were essentially correct. I'm not sure how accurate my caliper is, but its close enough for this exercise. The protrusion is .059". Is that in spec?

.059" will work, but better to have it ~35 thou. I think you could turn the pin cap 2 notches to get in that 25-35 thou range.

These are super cheap and great for measuring firing pins:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

[Ernest T]

.059" will work, but better to have it ~35 thou. I think you could turn the pin cap 2 notches to get in that 25-35 thou range.

These are super cheap and great for measuring firing pins:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Great! Another tool I neeeed.

I don't think the firing pin protrusion is adjustable on the new savages.

[GrenGuy]

Thanks for the pictures. Now You can see what Your true firing pin fall is, minus the explosion and blow back. With .059” firing pin protrusion, we would expect no less. Perhaps the Axis, new firing pin experts, can explain the solution to excessive fp protrusion on those platforms, or if it is in fact a problem.

IMO, at this point in time, You rifle, and platform, and loads, exceed expectations. Assuming that red dot on Your Target is 1”.

Congratulations

[Robinhood]

This is a touch off topic but for everyone taking in all of the information being tossed out on firing pin protrusion, I want to remind people that when you are setting up your firing pin, making measurements and al,l it is paramount that you consider the cocking piece and pin adjustment. This is a critical step in my opinion, when trying to troubleshoot light primer strikes and even accuracy issues. Setting the the correct length of travel starts at the cocking piece pin. That travel is impacted by the location of the firing pin stop and protrusion of the firing pin tip.---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The reason many of us point out that .035" being the best place to be was initially what Fred Moreo from Sharp Shooter Supply guided us to understand. (Each position of the firing pin stop, 4 total per revolution, is equal to .009" Therefore everyone will find a protrusion between .035" and .044" with the older style firing pin assembly) Taking the wisdom that as delivered to us by not only a top Savage Gunsmith but also a benchrest shooter is something that should not be overlooked. I believe Freds knowledge and understanding of consistent firing pin impact to achieve consistent primer ignition was a part of his path to make Savage rifles shoot............................................. .................................................. ...........................................Back to firing pin protrusion and its affect on firing pin travel. Lets start at the difference between setting protrusion and the the actual protrusion when the trigger is pulled with a primered case/live round. Chad Dixon of long rifles messaged me a book of information on the topic. in that PM he informed me that a primer can be ignited with as little as .015" maybe less and at maximum the need was more likely to be around .025. Fred has posted something about this but I can't recall the exact numbers but I believe he stated he had spent the time to measure the depth of primer indentation for verification. Why is this important, for 98%(random number) it is not important. But if you have an ignition issue it may come in to play. ........................................So for the sake of conversation, if the firing pin travel is set at the approximate .250" from the shelf of the cocking ramp to .015" from bottoming out at the fired position, likely a little less after the Cocking Piece Pin is handed off to the sear, anything that reduces the length of protrusion affects the distance of the firing pin travel. Therefore if you set your protrusion at say .040" and your firing pin stops at .025" when the anvil is driven into the bottom of the primer pocket and the shoulder of the case is seated in the chamber, you have only lost .015 of travel length. (Shoulder bump is critical for proper clearance and primer ignition.)If your pin is set at .055" protrusion you loose maybe .030' of travel using those numbers. Now you are down to less than .200 travel possibly with manufacturing tolerances. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .....These where slightly random thoughts from a older guy with some free time on his hands. I am very grateful to all of the knowledgeable guys that ultimately led me to these conclusions. Much of their dialog drove me to test and measure and inspect things. If you find something I have said to be discombobulated or untrue, I'm sorry. On the bright side I may have been the one to peak your interest enough to test my assertions. And for those of you who could care less...Chive on!

[GrenGuy]

Robin, thank You for post #184. I find it to be True and it is well received by Me. For many of us it is a welcome review. Others should have found much of the information in “SEARCH”.

We still need the low down on how to deal with this Axis FP set up.

IS SAVAGE USING THE AXIS FIRING PIN SET UP ON ITS NEW TARGET ACTIONS ??? :-))

[Dave Hoback]

All you said sound good in my ear Robin

Great! Another tool I neeeed.

I don't think the firing pin protrusion is adjustable on the new savages.

The new style firing pins aren’t adjustable, no. But you can still set protrusion if it’s too long. Measure for the appropriate amount it needs reduced. File to just shy of that amount. In your case, .059 less .035. So need reduced .024”. File .023” off flat. Put in a micro bevel for proper Radius & finish with sand paper. Round just the face but not ​past the bevel depth. A great way of getting it perfect is chucking in your drill press if you have one, or a hand drill held in a vice. Then use maybe 400grit sand paper in an arcing motion from bevel edge to bevel edge. Can finish the same action with 1000grit to remove any surface scratches & quick touch of Cold Blue. Sounds like many steps, but it’s not. It’s super easy. Things like this ya just go slow & measure often.

[GrenGuy]

All you said sound good in my ear Robin




The new style firing pins aren’t adjustable, no. But you can still set protrusion if it’s too long. Measure for the appropriate amount it needs reduced. File to just shy of that amount. In your case, .059 less .035. So need reduced .024”. File .023” off flat. Put in a micro bevel for proper Radius & finish with sand paper. Round just the face but not ​past the bevel depth. A great way of getting it perfect is chucking in your drill press if you have one, or a hand drill held in a vice. Then use maybe 400grit sand paper in an arcing motion from bevel edge to bevel edge. Can finish the same action with 1000grit to remove any surface scratches & quick touch of Cold Blue. Sounds like many steps, but it’s not. It’s super easy. Things like this ya just go slow & measure often.

So, how necessary is this ? We see the accuracy achieved with the rifle in its present condition. Will this modification show vast improvement on target ? Is this modification more theoretical or actual ?

[Robinhood]

So, how necessary is this ? We see the accuracy achieved with the rifle in its present condition. Will this modification show vast improvement on target ? Is this modification more theoretical or actual ?

To me it only comes into play when you are having issues, having swapped a bunch of parts together etc... and want to get it right as you put it back together. or maybe you are exhausted trying to get it to shoot .5 rather than .75 and you need to try something fresh. I would reduce the spring power some if I bushed and reduce the firing pin diameter. I was sanding springs to get the rate a little lower on the older assemblies. Another thing that was learned from a renowned Smith. Really helps on the lift and reduces rifle upset on the line.

[Robinhood]

Earnest, Your first measurement where you check the depth should measure .015 plus deeper. Bolt head depths are very consistent. Just looking at it. It looks like a lot of protrusion though. Changing it will only add to the bolt firing pin travel. If you are happy...so am I.

[Ernest T]

Thanks for the pictures. Now You can see what Your true firing pin fall is, minus the explosion and blow back. With .059” firing pin protrusion, we would expect no less. Perhaps the Axis, new firing pin experts, can explain the solution to excessive fp protrusion on those platforms, or if it is in fact a problem.

IMO, at this point in time, You rifle, and platform, and loads, exceed expectations. Assuming that red dot on Your Target is 1”.

Congratulations

thanks! The red circle is 1” and I’m happy with the progress so far. I think at this point, I’m looking for more consistent loads rather than more accuracy. I can make and shoot very small groups, but I still have outliers whether from an inconsistent load or lack of shooting accuracy on my part.

[Ernest T]

This is a touch off topic but for everyone taking in all of the information being tossed out on firing pin protrusion, I want to remind people that when you are setting up your firing pin, making measurements and al,l it is paramount that you consider the cocking piece and pin adjustment. This is a critical step in my opinion, when trying to troubleshoot light primer strikes and even accuracy issues. Setting the the correct length of travel starts at the cocking piece pin. That travel is impacted by the location of the firing pin stop and protrusion of the firing pin tip.---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The reason many of us point out that .035" being the best place to be was initially what Fred Moreo from Sharp Shooter Supply guided us to understand. (Each position of the firing pin stop, 4 total per revolution, is equal to .009" Therefore everyone will find a protrusion between .035" and .044" with the older style firing pin assembly) Taking the wisdom that as delivered to us by not only a top Savage Gunsmith but also a benchrest shooter is something that should not be overlooked. I believe Freds knowledge and understanding of consistent firing pin impact to achieve consistent primer ignition was a part of his path to make Savage rifles shoot............................................. .................................................. ...........................................Back to firing pin protrusion and its affect on firing pin travel. Lets start at the difference between setting protrusion and the the actual protrusion when the trigger is pulled with a primered case/live round. Chad Dixon of long rifles messaged me a book of information on the topic. in that PM he informed me that a primer can be ignited with as little as .015" maybe less and at maximum the need was more likely to be around .025. Fred has posted something about this but I can't recall the exact numbers but I believe he stated he had spent the time to measure the depth of primer indentation for verification. Why is this important, for 98%(random number) it is not important. But if you have an ignition issue it may come in to play. ........................................So for the sake of conversation, if the firing pin travel is set at the approximate .250" from the shelf of the cocking ramp to .015" from bottoming out at the fired position, likely a little less after the Cocking Piece Pin is handed off to the sear, anything that reduces the length of protrusion affects the distance of the firing pin travel. Therefore if you set your protrusion at say .040" and your firing pin stops at .025" when the anvil is driven into the bottom of the primer pocket and the shoulder of the case is seated in the chamber, you have only lost .015 of travel length. (Shoulder bump is critical for proper clearance and primer ignition.)If your pin is set at .055" protrusion you loose maybe .030' of travel using those numbers. Now you are down to less than .200 travel possibly with manufacturing tolerances. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .....These where slightly random thoughts from a older guy with some free time on his hands. I am very grateful to all of the knowledgeable guys that ultimately led me to these conclusions. Much of their dialog drove me to test and measure and inspect things. If you find something I have said to be discombobulated or untrue, I'm sorry. On the bright side I may have been the one to peak your interest enough to test my assertions. And for those of you who could care less...Chive on!

Most of that went right over my head. I think you must be speaking about what goes on inside the bolt and how it affects protrusion when there is actually a primer under the pin as opposed to setting it in a bolt our of the gun? I'm not that familiar with the internal workings of the Savage bolt.

[Ernest T]

All you said sound good in my ear Robin




The new style firing pins aren’t adjustable, no. But you can still set protrusion if it’s too long. Measure for the appropriate amount it needs reduced. File to just shy of that amount. In your case, .059 less .035. So need reduced .024”. File .023” off flat. Put in a micro bevel for proper Radius & finish with sand paper. Round just the face but not ​past the bevel depth. A great way of getting it perfect is chucking in your drill press if you have one, or a hand drill held in a vice. Then use maybe 400grit sand paper in an arcing motion from bevel edge to bevel edge. Can finish the same action with 1000grit to remove any surface scratches & quick touch of Cold Blue. Sounds like many steps, but it’s not. It’s super easy. Things like this ya just go slow & measure often.

I have a drill press and will probably give that a try after the first of the year. I have three weeks to shoot before we are leaving the country for a month-long trip and it'd drive me nuts to be right in the middle of that and have to leave.

[Ernest T]

So, how necessary is this ? We see the accuracy achieved with the rifle in its present condition. Will this modification show vast improvement on target ? Is this modification more theoretical or actual ?

To me it only comes into play when you are having issues, having swapped a bunch of parts together etc... and want to get it right as you put it back together. or maybe you are exhausted trying to get it to shoot .5 rather than .75 and you need to try something fresh. I would reduce the spring power some if I bushed and reduce the firing pin diameter. I was sanding springs to get the rate a little lower on the older assemblies. Another thing that was learned from a renowned Smith. Really helps on the lift and reduces rifle upset on the line.

Unfortunately, I didn't measure the protrusion before sending the bolt to be worked on so I don't know if it has less protrusion now than it did before. It doesn't look a lot different, but it cratered primers on loads one level below the maximum listed in the Hornady manual and now it doesn't. So, either it is protruding less or simply bushing the pin fixed the issue. I plan to reduce the protrusion some, but don't know if I'll go all the way to .035. I don't have firing issues now and don't want to create one by taking too much off.

[Ernest T]

Earnest, Your first measurement where you check the depth should measure .015 plus deeper. Bolt head depths are very consistent. Just looking at it. It looks like a lot of protrusion though. Changing it will only add to the bolt firing pin travel. If you are happy...so am I.

I'm not following ".015 plus deeper.".

[GrenGuy]

Again, I am in complete agreement with Robin. Earnest T, we all struggle with outliers, we call fliers. Even the Hall of Fame competitors. The best just have fewer, and there not as far out of the group. Just like living with a certain group size, we have to decide what we can live with as to fliers. As You already know, accuracy, and more accuracy, is about consistency. Consistency can be achieved by sorting cases, sorting bullets, sorting primers, weighing powder charges to .02 grains, shooting the best bullets money can buy and waiting a year to get them, and on and on. There is no end to stuff You can buy to do all this better, and no cut off on the cost. You want perfect neck tension, get an “IDOD”. And guess what, it still won’t be perfect.

Look at what Bart Sauter said to Erick Cortena in his interview,about fliers. It’s posted over on Accurate Shooter. Bart is a legend in shooting, and used to shoot Savages.

[Ernest T]

Again, I am in complete agreement with Robin. Earnest T, we all struggle with outliers, we call fliers. Even the Hall of Fame competitors. The best just have fewer, and there not as far out of the group. Just like living with a certain group size, we have to decide what we can live with as to fliers. As You already know, accuracy, and more accuracy, is about consistency. Consistency can be achieved by sorting cases, sorting bullets, sorting primers, weighing powder charges to .02 grains, shooting the best bullets money can buy and waiting a year to get them, and on and on. There is no end to stuff You can buy to do all this better, and no cut off on the cost. You want perfect neck tension, get an “IDOD”. And guess what, it still won’t be perfect.

Look at what Bart Sauter said to Erick Cortena in his interview,about fliers. It’s posted over on Accurate Shooter. Bart is a legend in shooting, and used to shoot Savages.

Is that the video where they question if there are really flyers at all? I've tried to watch the whole thing, but it's over an hour long and I haven't had an hour to watch the whole thing at once yet.

[Dave Hoback]

Having the shortest possible protrusion that still reliably ignites primers does more than just theory. As Robin pointed out, it adds to maximum pin fall. (Travel) This is important even when we are only talking some thousandths of an inch! Remember, the total pin travel available is .25”. That is not much to develop its top speed. I want every thousandth I can muster.

So to answer you you Gren, “How necessary is this?”. Well, it’s not really about necessary. It’s about being correct. When everything is correct, there is far less chance of any problem developing. And if one does, it’s far less troublesome to narrow down the cause. Here’s the thing, if you have a rifle with .050” pin protrusion, & it shoots lights out with absolutely no cratering… is it necessary to make the protrusion less? Of course not. But that’s not what is going on here. There is a potential problem. For me, I make certain something like this is taken care of before I ever fire the rifle! Just as I do, (and recommend others), to loosen & remove the the Action screws, separate the barreled Action from Stock/Chassis, give them both a clean out verifying no loose debris whatnot, then reinstall & torque the screws yourself. Also if you get a new or used rifle with scope already mounted. Loosen & re-torque the screws. (I like removing everything & starting fresh.) If a problem develops, it gives you the answers to the first question that will surely be asked. To me, this is part of setting up any rifle before firing. To make everything correct before sending the first round down the pipe.


But then, could just me & my thinking.. I am half retarded from the brain damage I’ve had. LOL!

[South Prairie jim]

Y’all should post some pictures of targets that show significant improvements on paper from shortening the protrusion. I’m on the other side of the tracks and taken my Savage just short of a world record with around .060 protrusion and never bushed a bolt.

[charlie b]

Shortening the firing pin does nothing for accuracy. The only issue with one being too long is the possibility of piercing the primer. Same with craters on primers.

[Ernest T]

I went to the range with my latest load of StaBall 6.5 to see how it would do at 500 yards and was quite pleased. I shot two rounds each at 200, 300 and 500 yards -- all were hits and pretty well centered in the target, an 8" steel disk, except the first shot at 500 yards which just clipped the left edge of the target. Tuesday (the weather forecast for Monday is crap), I'm headed over to Gatesville with this load to shoot out to 1200 yards.