Reloading 6.5 Creedmoor

[charlie b]

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[Ernest T]

Ernest T, what is Your end goal ? You are delving into some aspects of reloading that are precision methods for competition. Do You intend to compete, and if not, how will You judge Your success ?

I don't have an end goal except small groups at 100 yards. I don't shoot competition, but I am working my way towards shooting at 1000 yards. I'm at 500 and that was surprisingly easy to accomplish. I'm thinking I need to tighten up my reloading technique as the range increases.

Right now, I can tell the neck tension in my loads is not consistent just by the way the bullet seats. The force required is inconsistent, so I'm trying to address that issue. I can shoot six five-shot groups and get three of them into 1/2" and three with flyers in them. At first, I thought it was probably my shooting, but it could also be my loads.

I figure I'll try different things until I get it right or get tired of fiddling with it.

[Ernest T]

So lets assume you wanted to switch from sizing the case neck with an expander ball in a full length sizing die, to using an expander in a separate step so you could adjust neck size for different neck tensions. Your options are to buy a full set of 11 expanders for $174 or the individual expanders for $21.50 each. I'm thinking that most of those sizes, included in the set, aren't going to be used as they cover a pretty wide range of sizes. The question is, which size expander do you start with? I don't have a cylinder gauge small enough to measure the case neck I'm getting from my Lee full length sizing die, but the expander ball measures .262". That seems like the logical place to start -- and maybe buy the size .001 above and below that expander. They also sell sizes expanders .0005 above and below .262 so you can get half sizes. Any opinions?

[charlie b]

One thing you should keep in mind. How much case tension isn't really the issue. It is how consistent is the case tension.

The idea behind custom necks and such is to reduce the amount of sizing needed to reload. The reason for that is to work the brass less, introducing less stresses in the brass (and prolonging case neck life). Unless you change to a custom chamber you are kinda stuck with how much the case will expand during firing. If you want a case to match your chamber you can go to Forstner or Hornady and get custom dies made to match your fired brass.
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Forstner Custom Neck Honing (Optional)

Diamond stoning process enlarges the inside dia. to prevent over-sizing due to thick neck walls. Useful for brands of brass cases with thicker neck walls or when you do not intend to outside neck turn case necks that have thickened after repeated firings. Please note:
1. No more than .008″ stock removal from your existing die neck diameter is possible.
2. Honing is done in increments of one half thousandth of an inch (.0005″), meaning that your specified inside diameter must be either .XXX0″ or .XXX5″.
Custom machining cost (below) applie,

And from the accurate shooter folks:
1. Purchase a Forster full-length sizing die. Measure a loaded round with a bullet seated, and note the outside neck diameter. Then send your die to Forster and for $10 (plus shipping) Forster will hone the neck to the dimension you specify. For bolt guns, we suggest .002" under the neck diameter of a loaded round. For gas guns, go .003" under. Total cost is about $45.00, including the die.
2. Hornady can make you a custom full-length sizing die for about $75.00 plus shipping. Just send them a few fired cases and a reamer print (if you have it). They can create a die that gives you ideal neck tension, as well as just the right amount of sizing at the shoulder and web. Call Hornady and ask for Lonnie Hummel. Scott Parker recently had a die like this made and he reports: "Average runout for 65 rounds was .0004". All 65 rounds showed less than .001" runout."
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Another path would be to use bushing dies. FL or neck size only. Then you can buy the die and a neck bushing of your choice.

The next step in all this would be if you decide to neck turn all of your brass. That is something that used to be common due to inconsistencies in factory brass. These days a lot of factory brass is pretty good. And you can always get Lapua or Norma if you want better quality.

And don't forget the annealing part. If you choose to go that route then you need to anneal each one equally.

[GrenGuy]

I decap in a separate step with the LEE Universal decapping die. This gives Me a feel for the condition of the primer pockets. I full length size and bump the shoulder with a Redding Body Die. I neck size with the LEE Collet Die. This aligns the inside of the neck with the center or the case. Minimal runout. It makes the inside neck smooth and pushes irregularities to the outside. I set neck tension with a mandrel. Sinclair Expander Die from Brownells $39.99, stainless steel mandrels $9.99 ea.

Now, David Tubb (knowledgeable, look Him up) has stated “if You load into the lands, neck tension is irrelevant”??? That’s what He said.
Many precision shooters load into the lands.

But again, none of this matters unless a specific goal is desired. Like winning a match.

“acceptable accuracy” can be achieved with a Model 94 Winchester shooting factory ammo. JUST MY OPINION

[Ernest T]

Since I had a few cratered primers, I sent the bolt to Desh to work on the firing pin and install the bolt lift modification. This is what the bolt, firing pin and primers look like after the bolt work. I don't see a lot of difference, but the primers aren't cratered at the max load like they were before. I still have not achieved the accuracy or consistency with StaBall 6.5 that I did with the RL-16. Groups are + or - one inch and I don't have any 1/2 inch or smaller groups. I'm thinking I need to start adjusting the CBTO to see if that will tighten up the groups.

[Ernest T]

I loaded 10 rounds each with a couple different loads, 42.1 gr of StaBall 6.5 and 42.7 gr of StaBall 6.5 and did not crimp the cases as I have been.

For the 42.1 load, the ES was 20 FPS and SD was 8 FPS. Both five round groups were on the order of 1 1/8". It wasn't a case of a flyer, the holes were just not that close to each other. Velocity averaged 2641 FPS over the ten rounds. Not crimping seems to really tighten up the ES and SD.

For the 42.7 load, the ES was 42 FPS and SD 14. Two of the ten rounds were considerably slower than the other eight and again it could have been my powder loading. The groups were on the order of 1" with an average velocity of 2648.

Both loads were a little hotter than I settled on for Alliant RL-16 which was just over 2600 FPS and I think I got better groups with a little less powder.

[Ernest T]

I'm still mulling over how setting neck tension works and which one I would like to try. The expander mandrel in my Lee sizing die is .262", given the diameter of a 6.5 mm bullet is .264", I have .001 or .002 of tension depending on springback. I wasn't familiar with neck bushing dies so I did a little reading about them. As I understand it, you are setting neck tension by measuring the outside of the case. That seems like a roundabout way to go about it doesn't it?

[Whynot]

I have not read this whole thing so this may have been said earlier.....

It may seem like a roundabout way to go about it- but they are doing it for a reason.

On your Lee die it has to be able to size brass with a huge variety in brass thickness on the neck. So even if you are running brass with a thin neck it needs to size it down smaller than the expander mandrel- so that it sets the proper tension when you pull it back through. Now when you have thick brass it is still sizing the outside down to the same dimension- but the inside is way smaller than it needs to be- and the expander will take it back to the correct spec as it passes back. This is working the brass more than a bushing die does- and brass gets hard as it gets worked.

[Ernest T]

I have not read this whole thing so this may have been said earlier.....

It may seem like a roundabout way to go about it- but they are doing it for a reason.

On your Lee die it has to be able to size brass with a huge variety in brass thickness on the neck. So even if you are running brass with a thin neck it needs to size it down smaller than the expander mandrel- so that it sets the proper tension when you pull it back through. Now when you have thick brass it is still sizing the outside down to the same dimension- but the inside is way smaller than it needs to be- and the expander will take it back to the correct spec as it passes back. This is working the brass more than a bushing die does- and brass gets hard as it gets worked.

Still not seeing it. The expander ball doesn't pass through the neck when the case is in fully inserted into the sizing die right? So you are not materially changing the thickness of the neck brass because there is only pressure on it from one direction at a time. You get pressure from the outside of the case when the case is fully inserted into the die and pressure from the inside as the expander ball is removed when the case is withdrawn rom the die. Don't you end up with a thicker outside case neck measurement if you start out with thick brass, and smaller outside case neck measurement with thinner brass? The inside measurement in both instances is the thickness of the expander ball minus spring-back right? How does changing the neck bushing alter tension if you pull the expander ball through the case after sizing the outside of the neck?

On Edit: So the bushings allow you to adjust for thicker and thinner brass, but have no affect on the inside diameter of the neck?

[Ernest T]

Here is a visual example of what I'm talking about when I say I'm getting inconsistent tension. I can feel that some bullets take noticeably more pressure to seat than others. The brass in the video has been annealed, lubed, full length sized and then tumbled. The videos were taken as I am trimming the brass to length using a Lee Case Conditioning tool for 6.5 CM, which gives me consistent 1.912" case length. The mandrel, which sets the trim length, measures .259" in diameter. It slides into 80% of the cases like there is no friction between the mandrel and the case. Most of the rest slide in fairly easily, but you can tell they are a tighter fit, and there will be one or two percent of the cases that take some force to insert the mandrel. The expander ball on my Lee Full Length Sizing Die is .262. I don't have a micrometer capable of measuring the inside diameter of the brass, that may be my next tool purchase.

The question is how do I fix it?

[GrenGuy]

What You are seeing is different neck wall thickness, and perhaps inconsistent spring back, on no turn necks. The solution to what You want at this point in Your shooting experience is the LEE Collet die. Fire Your cases, full length size them just enough to easily fit in Your chamber, without the expander mandrel installed in the Die. Neck size with the collet die. This will align the center of the neck with the center of the case, and size the inside of the neck with about .003” neck tension. Since You have a no turn stock chamber, who cares what the outside of the neck is. After that, if You want less neck tension, then go to the mandrels mentioned previously.

Do this, and it will solve what worries You so at this point in time. But, then there will be the next thing.

The only way I would use a Bushing Die, is if I were turning necks, making the neck wall thickness consistent, and concentric. I don’t want to push the inconsistencies to the inside, causing bullet run out. And, before I turn necks on My 6mmBRA, I run them through the LEE Collet die to center up the necks and push the bad stuff to the outside, where it is turned off.

[Dave Hoback]

Since I had a few cratered primers, I sent the bolt to Desh to work on the firing pin and install the bolt lift modification. This is what the bolt, firing pin and primers look like after the bolt work. I don't see a lot of difference, but the primers aren't cratered at the max load like they were before. I still have not achieved the accuracy or consistency with StaBall 6.5 that I did with the RL-16. Groups are + or - one inch and I don't have any 1/2 inch or smaller groups. I'm thinking I need to start adjusting the CBTO to see if that will tighten up the groups.

Doesn’t look like it was made any shorter. You have just way, WAY too much protrusion. Bring it down to .035” or so & your primers will look beautiful. (Didn’t we go over this? LOL!) Your pin protrusion looks to be like .070”++..

[Ernest T]

What You are seeing is different neck wall thickness, and perhaps inconsistent spring back, on no turn necks. The solution to what You want at this point in Your shooting experience is the LEE Collet die. Fire Your cases, full length size them just enough to easily fit in Your chamber, without the expander mandrel installed in the Die. Neck size with the collet die. This will align the center of the neck with the center of the case, and size the inside of the neck with about .003” neck tension. Since You have a no turn stock chamber, who cares what the outside of the neck is. After that, if You want less neck tension, then go to the mandrels mentioned previously.

Do this, and it will solve what worries You so at this point in time. But, then there will be the next thing.

The only way I would use a Bushing Die, is if I were turning necks, making the neck wall thickness consistent, and concentric. I don’t want to push the inconsistencies to the inside, causing bullet run out. And, before I turn necks on My 6mmBRA, I run them through the LEE Collet die to center up the necks and push the bad stuff to the outside, where it is turned off.

Thanks! I have a Lee Collet die and will give that a try.

[Ernest T]

Doesn’t look like it was made any shorter. You have just way, WAY too much protrusion. Bring it down to .035” or so & your primers will look beautiful. (Didn’t we go over this? LOL!) Your pin protrusion looks to be like .070”++..

We did and I sent it to Desh and this is what it looks like after he sent it back.

[GrenGuy]

Dave is right. Desh shortened the bolt face, as part of the process, but didn’t set the pin pertrusion to .035”. That’s Your job. Put a fired case in Your chamber and pull the trigger. Send us a picture of the primer without the blowback.

[charlie b]

Not using the expanding mandrel in the FL size die creates a small issue when using the Lee collet die. The FL die makes the case neck smaller than the mandrel in the collet die so it takes a bit of force to push the case up into the die. Not a huge deal, but, it makes it feel different.

FWIW, many of the precision shooters consider a .002" neck 'tension' to be the std. Yes, you can use more or less if you want. The point is to make it consistent.

As a reference case, I use an off the shelf Forster FL size die for my 6BR. Seat with a Redding competition die. No other case prep. It shoots consistent 1/2MOA groups (with the proper bullets and load). It will go well over 1MOA with a bad load. I don't anneal the cases, rarely even clean them and I don't clean the primer pockets. I do wipe the carbon off the outside of the case neck, after sizing.

You should be able to get decent groups without tweaking the neck tension. Once you get down to the 1/2MOA range then consider tweaking the 'fine points'.

[Ernest T]

Dave is right. Desh shortened the bolt face, as part of the process, but didn’t set the pin pertrusion to .035”. That’s Your job. Put a fired case in Your chamber and pull the trigger. Send us a picture of the primer without the blowback.

This might be a stupid question, but with a new primer right?

[Ernest T]

Not using the expanding mandrel in the FL size die creates a small issue when using the Lee collet die. The FL die makes the case neck smaller than the mandrel in the collet die so it takes a bit of force to push the case up into the die. Not a huge deal, but, it makes it feel different.

FWIW, many of the precision shooters consider a .002" neck 'tension' to be the std. Yes, you can use more or less if you want. The point is to make it consistent.

As a reference case, I use an off the shelf Forster FL size die for my 6BR. Seat with a Redding competition die. No other case prep. It shoots consistent 1/2MOA groups (with the proper bullets and load). It will go well over 1MOA with a bad load. I don't anneal the cases, rarely even clean them and I don't clean the primer pockets. I do wipe the carbon off the outside of the case neck, after sizing.

You should be able to get decent groups without tweaking the neck tension. Once you get down to the 1/2MOA range then consider tweaking the 'fine points'.

I have shot sub MOA groups, even sub 1/2" groups with my hand loads. When that happens, the SD and ES are usually quite low for the group and when I shoot over 1" groups the SD and ES tends to be much larger. I'm looking for more consistency in my loads and by default, my process. I figure if I can tell a bullet is much easier, or harder, to seat, then I have a situation that probably leads to higher SD and/or ES.

On Edit: Is it normally easier to lever the case into the Lee Collet die than the Full Length Sizing die?

[GrenGuy]

No. Not a new primer. When a round is fired, the explosion inside the case pushes everything back against the bolt face, flattening out the primer. The only way to get a true picture of Your firing pin strike is to put that fired case, with the expended primer, back in the chamber, pull the trigger, and see what it looks like without the blowback. With the firing pin protrusion set at .035”, the pin will bottom out on the fired primer at about .025”. As Dave said, Your pin appears to protrude about .070”, about .035” too much. Not unusual when a bolt head comes back from being bushed.

Yes, a full length die with the expander removed will size the neck. As I said in post 155, I size the the case and bump the shoulder with a Redding Body Die, which does not size the neck. If the sizing expander is left in, it expands the neck on the way out, so IMO, no additional brass working occurs.

[Dave Hoback]

If you say so… I’m comparing the pictures you posted of your bolt before & after, and the FP doesn’t look any shorter to me.

Before:


After:


I don’t see a bit of difference in protrusion. I’m not sure why there is still contention. It’s too long..Period! It’s not a debatable point is all. So insisting it was shortened & therefore good, is folly.

[Ernest T]

Since I had a few cratered primers, I sent the bolt to Desh to work on the firing pin and install the bolt lift modification. This is what the bolt, firing pin and primers look like after the bolt work. I don't see a lot of difference, but the primers aren't cratered at the max load like they were before. I still have not achieved the accuracy or consistency with StaBall 6.5 that I did with the RL-16. Groups are + or - one inch and I don't have any 1/2 inch or smaller groups. I'm thinking I need to start adjusting the CBTO to see if that will tighten up the groups.

We did and I sent it to Desh and this is what it looks like after he sent it back.

I don’t see a bit of difference in protrusion. I’m not sure why there is still contention. It’s too long..Period! It’s not a debatable point is all. So insisting it was shortened & therefore good, is folly.

There's no contention Dave. I said in my initial post that I didn't see any difference. And I didn't say it was different in my first reply to you when you pointed out it was still too long, just that that was the way it came back. I thought Desh was going to shorten it and I guess he didn't.

[charlie b]

I have shot sub MOA groups, even sub 1/2" groups with my hand loads. When that happens, the SD and ES are usually quite low for the group and when I shoot over 1" groups the SD and ES tends to be much larger. I'm looking for more consistency in my loads and by default, my process. I figure if I can tell a bullet is much easier, or harder, to seat, then I have a situation that probably leads to higher SD and/or ES.

On Edit: Is it normally easier to lever the case into the Lee Collet die than the Full Length Sizing die?

Yes, the ES of a group is importan, probably the most important. The SD just does not mean much until you have a lot more data points. I have had quite a few 'blown' groups with low SD's.

If you just use the Lee Collet die to neck size it is very easy for the case to enter the die. It does take a bit of force at the end of the stroke to cause the collet to close on the neck.

If you FL size first without the expander button, it takes a bit of force to expand the case neck with the collet die. It is about the same amount of force as my Lee FL size die requires.

[Ernest T]

No. Not a new primer. When a round is fired, the explosion inside the case pushes everything back against the bolt face, flattening out the primer. The only way to get a true picture of Your firing pin strike is to put that fired case, with the expended primer, back in the chamber, pull the trigger, and see what it looks like without the blowback. With the firing pin protrusion set at .035”, the pin will bottom out on the fired primer at about .025”. As Dave said, Your pin appears to protrude about .070”, about .035” too much. Not unusual when a bolt head comes back from being bushed.

Yes, a full length die with the expander removed will size the neck. As I said in post 155, I size the the case and bump the shoulder with a Redding Body Die, which does not size the neck. If the sizing expander is left in, it expands the neck on the way out, so IMO, no additional brass working occurs.

I already deprimed, annealed, sized and trimmed that brass. I’ll shoot a few rounds and take a pic next week.

[Ernest T]

Another question, how consistent is the length of the brass after it is fired in your gun? This is the brass from the last 60 rounds I shot from my rifle. The rows, from back to front, measured 1.532", 1.533", 1.534", and the single casing in front measured 1.535" CBTO. None of it measured shorter than 1.531". I set the sizing die to bump the shoulder to 1.532" figuring the shorter cases would fit the chamber at that length. People talk like each piece of brass is exactly the same length after its fired, but that's not my case or is the brass falling within .004" essentially the same length?