Reloading 6.5 Creedmoor

[Dave Hoback]

I don’t know… seems like a useless measurement. Ok, it’s checking neck tension while you seat the bullet, but you can’t change it. The neck tension will be what it is. You know have loaded rounds. If the neck tensions are different, there is nothing you can do. Save for grouping similar tension cartridges together. And sure, I guess that is the point. Although, besides being a whole new set of grouped together rounds for testing, how is the reloader going to copy the results? As I said, the neck tension is what it is.

[Robinhood]

Have you ever watched Kieth Glasscock's YouTube stuff. He is a very accomplished shooter and has changed my paradigm about how to get there from here. Sadly I am retired from all of this for the most part so It I am in no position to mimic his efforts but I believe that his sermon is the/a path to nirvana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Winning in the Wind Kieth Glasscock https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCoX...pLSEFf06E0yT7A

[Ernest T]

I don’t know… seems like a useless measurement. Ok, it’s checking neck tension while you seat the bullet, but you can’t change it. The neck tension will be what it is. You know have loaded rounds. If the neck tensions are different, there is nothing you can do. Save for grouping similar tension cartridges together. And sure, I guess that is the point. Although, besides being a whole new set of grouped together rounds for testing, how is the reloader going to copy the results? As I said, the neck tension is what it is.

I was thinking you could disassemble the cartridge and resize again if it took too much or too little force to seat the bullet. That's not an option?

[Dave Hoback]

Sure you could disassemble it, but the measurement will change. And there is no way to control how much. Top performing shootists use case neck turning tools & bushing dies to control neck tension. Those two should be used before even thinking about this thing tool. Also it’s the kind of shooting one does. I don’t use a neck turn tool or bushing dies. Because shooting teeny-tiny little paper groups at 100yds ain’t my bag!

[charlie b]

That seems to be the standard choice for the precision crowd. I would assume you will also get a runout measurement system as well.

https://www.sinclairintl.com/guntech....htm?lid=16099

Next you will need better powder measuring tools. Prometheus is top of the line. Don't choke when you look at the price :)

https://www.prometheustoolcorp.com/

This is part of the 'rabbit hole' I have chosen to not go down. I am satisfied with 1/2MOA and I really cannot shoot better than that. I carry on with my Lee press and Lyman automatic powder measure (I really hate trickling powder). I 'measure' seating force by paying attention to how it feels when I seat the bullets. I do splurge on the seating dies. Redding competition. Runout I 'measure' by rolling a cartridge on a flat surface, but, after doing that a lot, and measuring a few with a dial indicator, I really don't do that on a regular basis.

[charlie b]

Neck tension can be varied by annealing and neck turning.

How far you go down this path is up to you and what difference you see on target.

Before you go much further I'd suggest you visit a benchrest match and see how those guys do things. Many of them are willing to share all of their secrets. Why? Because most of those matches are won or lost by reading the wind.

I have also look at Eric Cortina and F class John channels.

https://www.youtube.com/c/ErikCortina

https://www.youtube.com/c/FClassJohn

[charlie b]

Now that all of that is out of the way and before you invest in much more stuff....

Try a couple other things. First, sort your brass. Clean brass, full length size, trim to consistent length and then weigh the volume (eg, weigh the empty case and then fill with water and weigh again, record the difference). Sort the cases and you will throw some out. Second, make sure the flash hole is consistent. Inexpensive tools for that.

Unless you are using bullets like Sierra Match King, Berger or Lapua then you may need to weigh and sort the bullets. Yes, they are not consistent. Sierra's have usually been +/0.1gn. Same with Bergers. Hornady ELD's are more like +/- 0.3gn (the Amax are even worse). As reference I sort my cast bullets in 0.1gn batches. Cut my fliers by a ton.

You also need consistent primers. Federal match, CCI match, CCI magnum, or Winchester seem to be decent choices. I tend toward CCI match or magnum.

For precision I would recommend a better seating die than the Lee. I modify my Lee dies by making some new internals for them. Better is something like a Redding or Forstner seating die (or Wilson if you want to go that route). The micrometer adjustable top is for convenience only. It is nice when I am changing between different bullets as I can record the setting for each.

Then shoot a lot more. See where you are at. Then decide how much more you want to spend.

[PhilC]

This is what I was thinking of using to measure neck tension when seating the bullet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMgHov3jXjk

IMHO, that's "getting in the weeds too much" for what you're doing and there are a LOT of other things you would need to control before something like that would even need to be considered.

That device isn't for measuring neck tension, it's for bullet seating pressure which can be an indicator for many things not just neck tension.

Spend time mastering the fundamentals, you'll be happier vs chasing rabbit holes and will shoot smaller groups as a result.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a gadget guy too, and have several neat tools I don't use anymore. Why? Because they're not needed to meet my shooting goals.

[Ernest T]

Lots of things to think about. First, I don't want to do anything I'm not already doing, but I don't mind changing how I do it. I'm using Lapua brass and anneal it and clean it every time I reload. I bump the shoulders back with a full Lee length sizing die, and trim the brass with the Lee case length gauge and cutter. All the cases end up the same length, base to shoulder and base to case mouth. I clean the flash hole with a RCBS flash hole deburring tool. I prime using the Lee turret press and charge the case after measuring the powder with a Lee safety scale. I seat using the Lee bullet seater and crimp with a Lee factory crimp die. I know I have occasionally inconsistent neck tension and that's what I'm looking to improve.

At a minimum, I'm thinking I need a different full length sizing die and a Wilson bullet seating die. I'm not sure about the Lee crimp die. Using the K&M arbor press and force pack seems like a good way to select the best neck tension because you can't change what you can't measure.

Primers - I've been using CCI SRP, but I also have a couple bricks of Federal Gold Medal Small Rifle Match Primers I've been saving.

Bullets - I use Hornady 140 Gr ELD-M and do weigh them before loading. I've found very few that aren't 140 Gr.

I should measure the case volume and cull those at either end of the spectrum since that's a one time thing.

Powder - I'd like to get a better powder measure, but I won't be getting a Prometheus!

[Dave Hoback]

For one, stop using the Factory Crimp die. I use it to crimp my 223 loads for my AR’s, but I certainly wouldn’t use it on loads going through a bolt Action. Definitely not on 6.5CM. Bet just that will help.

[Robinhood]

Powder - I'd like to get a better powder measure, but I won't be getting a Prometheus!

.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .. https://ceproducts.shop/products/fx-...-122g-x-0-001g .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ...........Ernest, don't bother with volume unless all of your cases are of exact external dimensions. Sizing will not do that. Buy a case trimer holder from wilson and you will see the difference. You are on the right track with improved powder measurements. Also equal and consistent neck tension. Many ways to skin a cat. You should really watch Kieth Glasscock. A winning Fclass shooter and team captain. He talks on the level that you are striving for. Completely different from Erik C but at or above his level.

[Dave Hoback]

Yeah, Glasscock’s a smart dude. I’ve watched a few of his videos here & there. Not regularly because I’m not a competition shooter. Some good info though.

[Ernest T]

.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .. https://ceproducts.shop/products/fx-...-122g-x-0-001g .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ...........Ernest, don't bother with volume unless all of your cases are of exact external dimensions. Sizing will not do that. Buy a case trimer holder from wilson and you will see the difference. You are on the right track with improved powder measurements. Also equal and consistent neck tension. Many ways to skin a cat. You should really watch Kieth Glasscock. A winning Fclass shooter and team captain. He talks on the level that you are striving for. Completely different from Erik C but at or above his level.

I'll check him out. I'm just trying to maximize accuracy within a window of reason. I don't mind spending money where its well spent.

[Ernest T]

For one, stop using the Factory Crimp die. I use it to crimp my 223 loads for my AR’s, but I certainly wouldn’t use it on loads going through a bolt Action. Definitely not on 6.5CM. Bet just that will help.

I'll give that a try. I'm not crimping very hard anyway.

[charlie b]

So, as a 'minimum' level of reloading procedure.... When I set up for the 6BR I didn't want to spend a lot of money. The result is a 1/2MOA rifle. Probably a little better than that but I am just not that consistent a shooter to do better. Even a tiny error when shooting takes a 1/3MOA group and turns it into a 1MOA.

Shilen match barrel on my 12BVSS. Not bedded, just the factory pillars. Vortex Viper 5-25x50 scope. Shot off front rest and rear bag.

Lapua brass. Only prep was chamfer case mouths. Forster full length size die. Redding competition seat die. Lyman Gen6 automatic powder dispenser. Lee Loadmaster press.

I do not anneal cases. Shoot. resize, prime, powder, seat bullet, repeat. I rarely clean the cases, just wipe off the necks. I use Hornady One Shot lube. The bullets I have used so far are all Hornady, 90 ELDX, 103ELDX, 108ELDmatch. The 103's have been most accurate so far. Pretty consistent 1/2MOA and many groups less than that. I have 10 reloads on the cases right now.

One of these days I'll try some Berger, Lapua or Vapor Trail bullets.

Keep in mind that many F-class and bench rest shooters would consider this a 'loser'. They go to extremes to get down to 1/4MOA or less. I consider going to a consistent 1/4MOA takes 10 times the attention to detail and precision in measuring equipment than it does to reach 1/2MOA.

[wbm]

I consider going to a consistent 1/4MOA takes 10 times the attention to detail and precision in measuring equipment than it does to reach 1/2MOA.

For sure. Seems it's that way for a lot of things in life.

[Ernest T]

So, as a 'minimum' level of reloading procedure.... When I set up for the 6BR I didn't want to spend a lot of money. The result is a 1/2MOA rifle. Probably a little better than that but I am just not that consistent a shooter to do better. Even a tiny error when shooting takes a 1/3MOA group and turns it into a 1MOA.

Shilen match barrel on my 12BVSS. Not bedded, just the factory pillars. Vortex Viper 5-25x50 scope. Shot off front rest and rear bag.

Lapua brass. Only prep was chamfer case mouths. Forster full length size die. Redding competition seat die. Lyman Gen6 automatic powder dispenser. Lee Loadmaster press.

I do not anneal cases. Shoot. resize, prime, powder, seat bullet, repeat. I rarely clean the cases, just wipe off the necks. I use Hornady One Shot lube. The bullets I have used so far are all Hornady, 90 ELDX, 103ELDX, 108ELDmatch. The 103's have been most accurate so far. Pretty consistent 1/2MOA and many groups less than that. I have 10 reloads on the cases right now.

One of these days I'll try some Berger, Lapua or Vapor Trail bullets.

Keep in mind that many F-class and bench rest shooters would consider this a 'loser'. They go to extremes to get down to 1/4MOA or less. I consider going to a consistent 1/4MOA takes 10 times the attention to detail and precision in measuring equipment than it does to reach 1/2MOA.

This is definitely a work in progress. I'm giving the "don't clean the brass" method a try. I had been using stainless pins and a rotary tumbler, but then I read a post about the case mouth getting beat up and causing inconsistent neck tension. I don't think I had that issue because I trim the brass every time I reload it so its all the same length. That should have removed any irregularities on the case mouth.

[charlie b]

I would disagree about the SS pins being a problem. I use them when I do clean brass and they really don't change anything. Seating force is a little different with clean brass than dirty. I don't see it making a huge difference at my level. As long as all the ones I have with me are done the same way, the groups stay 'normal'.

FWIW, my .308 is a little different. I frequently just neck size (Lee collet die), no cleaning of brass, no lube in neck (powder fouling is a decent 'lube'). "Felt" seating force is about the same and I see no difference in group sizes.

Keep in mind there always seems to be one or two pieces of brass that act different than the rest in a batch. I can feel it during one of the sizing or seating operations. When I do feel a difference I pull that piece and inspect it. If it is ok I just mark the base and load it with the rest. Sometimes it shoots just fine, sometimes it doesn't and I trash it. FYI, this is also how I discover a case that has a split neck.

Just pay attention to what is going on in the reloading process and make notes at the range. I keep track of where each bullet goes (when I am punching paper) and the velocity. I also note when a round is hard to chamber or extract. That case will get extra scrutiny before it is reloaded.

[Ernest T]

Have you ever watched Kieth Glasscock's YouTube stuff. He is a very accomplished shooter and has changed my paradigm about how to get there from here. Sadly I am retired from all of this for the most part so It I am in no position to mimic his efforts but I believe that his sermon is the/a path to nirvana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Winning in the Wind Kieth Glasscock https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCoX...pLSEFf06E0yT7A

I've already watched a lot of his videos -- I didn't recognize the name.

[Robinhood]

I've already watched a lot of his videos -- I didn't recognize the name.

Cool. Obviously you took in what you saw.

[charlie b]

I especially liked his video on fliers :)

[Ernest T]

Cool. Obviously you took in what you saw.

Yeah, but he says a lot and there are a lot of videos!

Here's where I'm at. I still haven't given up on the arbor press and dial indicator to seat bullets, but I need to make a other improvements anyway.

1. I want to use a full length sizing die to bump the shoulder back .002". I've read you can do that with just about any non-collet die by removing the mandrel with the sizing ball. I need to determine if my Lee sizing die is up to the task.
2. To set neck tension with an expander mandrel, I need an expander die body and mandrel .001-.003 smaller than bullet diameter.
3. I need to get a better bullet seating die.
4. Stop crimping bullets.

Does that sound reasonable?

[charlie b]

Look at Eric Cortina's method for setting FL size dies. I would not be concerned with how many thousandths it is set back, just that it is 'enough' to fit your chamber and allows for smooth action. Why would you remove the mandrel? Just curious.

Why can't you use the proper mandrel with your FL or neck size die?

[Ernest T]

Look at Eric Cortina's method for setting FL size dies. I would not be concerned with how many thousandths it is set back, just that it is 'enough' to fit your chamber and allows for smooth action. Why would you remove the mandrel? Just curious.

Why can't you use the proper mandrel with your FL or neck size die?

Its just a different method I read about.

1. Full length sizing die with ball
2. Bushing die
3. Using a expander mandrel

With number one, you are limited to combos provided by the die maker. Two might be inconsistent if your brass is not a consistent thickness at the neck since you are sizing the outside of the brass neck. With three, you know bullet diameter and can choose the inside neck diameter to give you whatever tension you desire.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXU9oSX0qAY

[GrenGuy]

Ernest T, what is Your end goal ? You are delving into some aspects of reloading that are precision methods for competition. Do You intend to compete, and if not, how will You judge Your success ?