I would like to see the tip of the firing pin before I recomended a bushing job. That may very well be what you need, but if the radius goes below the bolt face that is your problem. Desh can figure that out also. However if it is just the firing pin you can fix that yourself. You can even measure the hole and the pin and see if that is your problem.
The Dunning-Kruger effect is alive and well.
The Dunning-Kruger effect is alive and well.
Yeah… I’m sorry.. I agree with Robin. I was simply assuming you’ve looked that over and it all good. But it is paramount to check & go over the very simple things first. Broke my own rule of never assuming the simplicities.
That’s a good thread about the issue. Worth the read.
I only had the problem on the max loads. After I saw the primers, I stopped firing that load and I fired ten rounds of the next load down, and none of the primers cratered so I don't think its an issue with the gun that needs addressed. I'm going to experiment with loads between the 42.9 and 43.7 grains to see where it starts. I'll also post a picture of the firing pin tomorrow.
Here's a pic of the firing pin. I don't know why the bolt looks black, its shiny silver like its chromed.
I see lots of protrusion and a large radius. With a primed cartridge in the chamber the firing pin will protrude no more than .025" from the face of the bolt. Even if you set your protrusion at .050". The primer cup and the anvil pressed against the bottom of the primer pocket control how far the firing pin moves. Therefore the radius should cover slightly less than .025" from the very tip of the firing pin. Fred(sharpshooter) graciously posted a drawing in the link I provided above to add a visual to this topic.
The protrusion could be adjusted to allow for a the correct firing pin travel but not going to be the fix for ths particular issue.
The Dunning-Kruger effect is alive and well.
I'm rolling with it the way it is for now since it doesn't seem to crater primers except with max loads. I'm doing some long distance shooting at the range tomorrow -- 300, 400 and 500 yard qualification so I can use the range at those distances without supervision.
You have the load worked out so good luck. What range are you using?
The Dunning-Kruger effect is alive and well.
I hope to get a lot of good pointers from this thread. I am getting a 6.5 Creedmoor this afternoon, if all goes well. I initially thought the caliber was just a fad but after checking out the ballistics, I see it is an excellent caliber. It will take me a little time to learn how to shoot a powerful caliber like this but I am hoping I can become somewhat satisfactory after practice.
Well, that was quite an experience. I've heard that normally only 7-8 guys show up for qualification, but there were 23 today. Qualification normally happens once a month after the "voluntary" range maintenance day, but they added an extra one this month. There must have been pent up demand or a lot of guys who really don't want to mow the grass to qualify!
We went through a safety briefing about keeping lead on the property and how to manage the different ranges so shooting stays safe. The targets are at one end and there are four shooting positions staggered from 100 to 500 yards away from the targets. When you use one distance, you have to close off the others so they can't be used while you are using yours. First come first served. The bar wasn't set very high, you have to get 3 hits out of 10 shots on a 18" tall, 15" wide steel target at each distance to qualify. They don't want to disqualify people, they want them to be able to keep the rounds near the targets.
We were given an opportunity to confirm zero on our scopes before starting and I was surprised that only three of us took it. Then we started at 200 yards -- it went pretty fast and no one missed. Two hundred yards is also the farthest you can shoot without having qualified for long range shooting. Then we moved back to 300 yards and everyone qualified there, but there were 5-6 misses at this range.
Finally we were at the 500 yard line and things got interesting there. When we started, there was not much wind to speak of, and it was coming right behind us. As the morning wore on, the wind increased and started swirling. There is a weather system coming in and you could tell things were changing. By the time we got to the 500 yard range, the wind had moved from behind us to coming at us at about 300 degrees and was changing in velocity shot to shot.
We shot by caliber, smaller ones first, larger ones last except I was always last to shoot as I was the only shooter shooting from a bench. Everybody else shot prone, even guys I'd shot with and had never seen them shoot from the prone position. None of the guys shooting .223 Remington were able to ring steel 3 of 10 times from 500 yards. The first guy to do it was shooting a .243 and he popped three in a row easy peasy. A few more guys shot different varieties of 6.5 mm and on up to .308. I hit steel three times and we were done.
I shot 11 rounds, two warm-up shots, and 3 hits from each range, 200, 300 and 500 yards. No misses. Six or seven others qualified from the 500 yard line too. This was a pass fail exercise, if you didn't pass the 500 yard test, you didn't get credit for the 300 yard test. I used the Hornady 4DOF app set to MOA for calculating bullet drop. My scope is an Arken SH-4 6-24X50. I used 10 at 200 yards, 12 at 300 yards and 18 at 500 yards.
A few observations.
Up to 300 yards it appears it was pretty easy for everyone.
At 500 yards, the variable wind and sheer distance made it more difficult.
Lighter rounds were harder to control. Several shooters lamented their choice of weapon. I posited that the goal of the day wasn't to challenge ourselves, but to qualify as easily as possible.
We had a spotter, but I saw very few people adjust their scope after being told where their bullet hit. At 500 yards, the spotter told me I was low and barely caught the right edge of the target with my first shot. I adjusted the scope up and left and took the second shot, keeping the same POA. He told me I was in the center vertical and still on the right half of the target. I adjusted again and hit center of the target on my last shot. That seems like the logical way to approach this to me, but several shooters missed their last shot after hitting two of their previous shots.
Some of the prone shooters said they should have shot from the bench where they were more comfortable. Again, make qualifying as easy on yourself as possible.
I used a combination of my handloads and Hornady factory ammo. I used the factory ammo for the warm-up shots and my loads of 42.5 gr of StaBall 6.5 for the targets. My loads are tailored for my gun and I figure they are going to be more accurate than any factory ammo so I've been using it for warm-up shots. These handloads netted a velocity of 2620 FPS or so without any obvious signs of overpressure.
My Lapua brass didn't show any signs of pressure at 42.5 like it did at 43.7 gr. Lesson learned.
Some random pics of the action. There aren't that many guys shooting at once, they're following shots with their rifle scopes.
Originally Posted by Mr.Snerdly
Congrats on the new gun. I love the way it shoots although now that I've tried a 6.5, I'm considering a 6.0 in the near future. The 6.5 is an easy to shoot cartridge.
200, 300 and 500.
Glad it went well for you. When the wind kicks up things do get interesting. Am surprised the .223 guys weren't hitting. I went with a 6BR simply because the .223 was just a tad 'light' for 1000yd. The 6BR has lived up to it's name at 600yd. Light recoil and easy to load for. 1000yd is about as far as I would shoot it, but, since the range I use only goes to 1000 it does not present a problem.
Here's a pic of the firing pin. I don't know why the bolt looks black, its shiny silver like its chromed.
HOLY crazy protrusion Batman! You really should address that man. Just as Robin pointed out.. way too much protrusion & the radius is too much. So that needs addressed. Again, look at mine below. Now, I have mine even less than the .035” recommended, but I have a machined, S7 tool steel FP which is heavier & utilizing max fall. Take note of my FP radius as well. Notice that it’s only the top face of the pin basically. Doesn’t drop below the bolt face. I mean, not for nothing, but this is pretty much ideal. If you are unsure of it, myself or Robin r one of many others here can talk you through it. BTW: the bolt looking “black” in the photo is a shadow effect taken on by high polished & chrome like surfaces.
I would simply add to this: at the point of FP travel/impact, having excess pin protrusion & radius, on top of questionable pin fit in the hole, the pin tip will continue at an angle as much as much as the protrusion/“play” allows. This is what causes the cratering & impact off center in the first place. I still believe fixing the radius & protrusion will at least help(if not fix), however in addition to the bush’d bolt head, will take care of the cratering. And I believe the blanking as well.
I'll address the firing pin pretty quickly. I'm also looking at the bolt lift modification and might have the bolt fluted while I'm at it because it looks petty cool. We're going out of the country for almost a month in December and it'll be a good time to send it off.
I have pretty much established the steps I use for reloading and am generally happy with the results, but I have a niggling suspicion that some of the flyers I am getting is because I have inconsistent neck tension in my reloads. I resize brass with a Lee full length sizing die and seat with the Lee seating die. Most of the time it only takes light pressure on the press lever to seat the bullet, but every once in awhile they seat a little harder or with almost no pressure at all. Those anomalies make me wonder about the bullets that feel normal when I seat them, but have a little more or little less tension.
I've done some research and found all kinds of opinions on what causes inconsistent neck tension. Cleaning brass with SS pins and a rotary tumbler seems to be high on the list. Apparently the pins can peen the case mouth which leads to inconsistencies unless the mouth is trimmed and chamfered after every cleaning and resizing. (I trim after every resizing so all my cases stay very close to the same length) Others recommended ultrasonic cleaning to get around the peening issue. Then I found people that claim removing carbon from the case is what causes inconsistent neck tension because the carbon facilitates bullet seating. Some even claim they don't have to lube cases if they are carbon fouled. Other people said you can put the carbon back by using a dry lube, which includes carbon, on the case neck. Sometimes it makes my head hurt to think about this stuff.
I decided to reload a few cases without cleaning to see how they shoot. I had about 30 6.5 Creedmoor cases waiting to be cleaned and reloaded so I decided to de-prime, anneal, lube, resize, trim and chamfer, prime, powder charge, seat the bullet and crimp them without cleaning. I loaded all 30 cases that way and will give them a try this week.
A few thoughts about the process. I really like clean brass so if this process works better, I have to figure out how to clean the outside of the case. Some reloaders say they can tumble the brass for 15 minutes and it removes the annealing process discoloration, but leaves most of the carbon in the case. IDK, we'll have to see if that works. It took much less force to resize the brass and seat the bullet in dirty brass than it does in clean brass. Seating the bullet also seemed more consistent using this method. Whether that results in better groups remains to be seen.
I have experienced the same thing. I think it is especially true if you don't anneal the cases.
When I do clean them I use an ultrasonic first, then tumble with SS pins. I lube with Hornady One Shot spray. This is done at an angle such that the lube is sprayed inside the case neck as well as on the outside of the case. This way I get more even neck tension.
When I full length size I follow up with a Lee neck size. To me it is makes for fairly consistent neck tension on the bullets. I also frequently just neck size the cases.
FWIW, I keep track of fliers by marking the base of a case. If it gives me a flier in the next session I set aside the case.
The other thing you might want to do is check the case volume. Weigh an empty case then fill with water and weigh again. Compare to the other cases.
I’m opposite. I make certain the inside of the neck is free of any lube. I prefer the Imperial wax… that stuff is slicker’n can be! But after sizing I make sure to clean out the inside of the necks. I’ve just always been so conscious of bullet set-back. Crazy.. I’ve seen extreme accuracy shooters that size to have the bullet just sitting in the case & can be pulled out by hand with light pressure. That gives me anxiety! I’ve seen too many guns come apart in a HURRY from bullet set-back. Now, I like ‘em in there fairly tight. I just try to make them consistent all the same. But that’s the name of the game…consistency! Wish you luck.
Consistency is the key for sure. I found this article very interesting. Its an article about a group of bench shooters using a warehouse in Houston, Texas, to explore the limits of accuracy in a closed environment. A couple excerpts.
- Then, this step could be the most critical – the “tuning” step requiring a sensitive touch and #400 sandpaper. The secret is to get the neck tension (the grip of the brass on the bullet) exactly the same on every case. You do this by firing the case and then feeling the bullet slide in the case neck as you seat it. Here, a micrometer won’t do you any good. Feel is the whole thing. If any case grips the bullet harder than the others, you take three turns over the sandpaper and fire it again, until you get exactly the same amount of seating pressure.
- To get a good sense of bullet seating pressure, Virgil seated bullets in a Wilson straight-line tool BY HAND — not arbor press. He estimated that the seating pressure on his hand was moderate — perhaps 15 pounds. If seating requires significantly more pressure, the operation damages the bullet’s fragile pressure ring, bulging your groups. If the seating pressure is too light, he said you’re assured a mediocre .250″ rifle.
https://precisionrifleblog.com/2013/...ifle-accuracy/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uAB4I4yLbI
I read that article about once a year just to remind me of how they did things. Keep in mind that some of what they did worked because they were only shooting at 100yd. When you go out to 500yd and further the powder charge and bullet become much more important (maybe even 300 depending on your level of accuracy).
Yep, when you are trying to get less than 1/4MOA a lot of things matter.
Note that in the above article they did not resize the cases. The chambers were cut special so they could be wiped, deprimed/primed, charged and bullet seated. Which is also a reason why they could seat the bullets by hand.
okay, how does one cut the chamber so you don’t need to resize? Won’t the case always expand (within reason) to fill the chamber?
i’m interested in controlling as much as I can control without getting into the weeds too much. Right now I’d like to get better control of neck tension without turning necks or sanding cases. Do you think I could accomplish that with a collet die and the Wilson bullet seater/arbor press combo?
Yes, the case will expand, but it can still be chambered. However, the necks would ALWAYS need sized. Most target shooters only neck size anyway. There is no “special” chamber cut which allows NO neck sizing. As for bullets loaded by hand, I’m skeptical. I mean, there are hand loaders, which are the screw together type. But if you mean simply slipping a bullet into the case, I doubt it. Yes those seeking extreme accuracy do favor light neck tension. And I’ve heard of bullets able to to be be pulled from the case neck by hand. However, this was with some effort. The necks still need resized after firing.
I disagree. You can cut a chamber such that the brass spring back is enough to seat a bullet without sizing. It is a very critical dimension and usually requires neck turning to match.
This is not something the normal person would do since there is so much attention needed to the dimensions of brass, chamber and bullet.
This is what I was thinking of using to measure neck tension when seating the bullet.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMgHov3jXjk
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