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Thread: Reloading 6.5 Creedmoor

  1. #51
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    I shoot a lot of cast bullets in my .308 so I made a throat cast. The throat on mine is exactly SAAMI spec. For my use that is a very short throat. But, if using bullets like the Berger 155's, the throat is almost too long. When seated to lightly jam (where these Bergers are best) then the bullets are seated out long.

    IMHO, the reason throats seem 'long' is due to the extended range ogives used these days. Makes for a lot of bullet far into the throat.

    Sent from my SM-P580 using Tapatalk

  2. #52
    Team Savage Ernest T's Avatar
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    That article gave me the confidence that I could go shorter, maybe much shorter, and find a length that would shoot well.

  3. #53
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    For two of my rifles that shoot best in the just under 0.020 jump range, one of them shoots almost as accurately with a jump of 0.060.
    The 0.060 jump is supported by almost 20 groups of data.
    Maybe that will help.
    I can't explain why, but the numbers say it does.

  4. #54
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    It is .200" jump to the lands on my Axis with a 69 grain Sierra with an OAL length of 2.26". Savage rifles seem to have a very long throat. I know it was less than this since it has had a fair number of rounds through it but it should not be close to being worn out. My 783 Remington is almost .100" less to the throat than the Axis. However, the Axis does seem to shoot well even with this long jump. I do seat them a little longer than 2.26, which is supposed to be the maximum length for a 223 but it feeds and chambers well at a considerably longer length. It might shoot as good at 2.26 but I feel more confident if it doesn't have such a huge jump.

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    Mr.Snerdly,

    Where did you get the impression that the maximum length of a .223 69 gr SMK is 2.260?
    The recommended OAL for the 69 SMK is based upon the OAL limit of an AR Mag not on the chamber length.
    The Savage mags and the AICS mags have a lot more OAL available than that.
    My AICS mag allows up to 2.500 OAL.
    I even asked Sierra about their recommendation, and they admitted that the AR mag length was a consideration.

    I find you can load those 69 SMKs out as long as you have enough bullet body in the neck to maintain consistent neck tension.
    Some say you need a length equivalent to the caliber in the neck. I find it is more like half that. Remember the 69 SMKs have a boat tail and that doesn't touch the neck.
    I generally shoot my Savage 12 FV with 69 grain Sierra SMKs around 2.300 but I have loaded them out to as long as 2.340 as the barrel has eroded (4,000 rounds) and got good results.
    They shoot great with those OALs.
    I load the TMKs about 0.070 longer than the SMKs.

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    +1

  7. #57
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    I think I have it down - at least with RL-16. I shot eight, 5-round groups and they all looked similar to this one, all 5 holes were touching on all the groups. This is 41.2 grains of RL-16 at 2.163 CBTO. This load gives me a velocity right around 2640 FPS.



    This one puzzled me because it seems far-etched that all five shots went into this hole, but unless I missed the target and backer board completely that's what happened. Since the backer is a 48" X 48" piece of fiberboard I doubt I missed it completely.


    I used CCI small rifle primers and measured the loads using a Lee beam scale which gave me very consistent velocities.



  8. #58
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    Nice shooting. I guess I won't ask about the Lee powder scale now. I was going to ask if it was as good as some of the others but with results like that, it is obvious it is plenty good enough. Most of the stuff I buy is Lee now. I have some RCBS but usually the Lee stuff works as good or better at 1/2-2/3 the cost.

  9. #59
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    This is representative of the groups I was getting at 200 yards. It's just inside 1 MOA, but several of the rounds are in really close proximity, which makes me think I can do much better. I think this is more a result of my shooting than the loads I made. I have a 6-24X50 Arkin FFP scope on the rifle and only used 16X so these 8" circles look pretty small. My plan is to eventually get out to 800 yards and I didn't want to use up the the range of the scope at shorter distances. I used the Hornady 4DOF calculator to adjust the scope and think I over estimated the wind which caused the impact to be a little right. The hold over of 1.61 MOA seems pretty good.


  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Snerdly View Post
    Nice shooting. I guess I won't ask about the Lee powder scale now. I was going to ask if it was as good as some of the others but with results like that, it is obvious it is plenty good enough. Most of the stuff I buy is Lee now. I have some RCBS but usually the Lee stuff works as good or better at 1/2-2/3 the cost.
    Its funny you mention RCBS because I use their competition power measure for 45 ACP, 9 MM and .223 Remington, but measure each powder load manually for the 6.5 CM with the Lee Safety Scale. I've checked it against a couple digital scales and its definitely more consistent. Some people don't like Lee, but I've had good luck with most of it. Their auto drum powder measure is very accurate, but I couldn't get mine to not leak Hogdon BL-C(2) powder and that's why I switched to the RCBS.

  11. #61
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    New Lapua 6.5 CM brass measures 1.529 from base to the middle of the shoulder with a .400 collet in my comparator. The fired brass in my rifle measures 1.537+ or - a thou and a half, so I knock the shoulder back about .003 with the FL sizing die before reloading.

    I talked to a couple guys at the range a month or so ago and changed the way I prep brass for reloading.

    I used to de-prime, clean with a rotary tumbler, dry in the oven, then lube, re-size, measure and trim if necessary. Then I'd wipe down the outside of the case with a rag and the inside with a Q-tip, load the powder, seat the bullet and crimp.

    Now, I lube the dirty brass, de-prime and re-size before trimming and then clean and dry. Once its clean, I load the powder, seat the bullet and crimp.

  12. #62
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    Your headspace may be off. If you are measuring your brass correctly, it should fall somewhere 1.5438 and 1.5508. Measure the length of your spacer(should be 1") and inspect the inside corner of your .400" bushing. If it is worn it will give a bad reading. It is just a reference but I would like to know exactly where i was on new brass at least.

    Also .003" shoulder bump is slightly excessive. Not to much but dropping to .002"may be a better place.

    If you are firing your brass often consider annealing every 2 to 4 firings to ensure they are bumping consistently and the neck tension is the same. Also consider the amount of neck tension to be a tuning aid.

    Work to get consistent powder charges where the deviation is at least .05 grain.

    If you ever start seeing deep scratches on the axis of the brass it may be lodged grit in your die.

    Play with seating depth when you find a good load. It may get better.

    The Dunning-Kruger effect is alive and well.

  13. #63
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    You apparently haven't read the entire thread -- its all been about finding a seating depth that returns adequate accuracy.

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ernest T View Post
    You apparently haven't read the entire thread -- its all been about finding a seating depth that returns adequate accuracy.
    I do believe I have read this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ernest T View Post
    "New Lapua 6.5 CM brass measures 1.529 from base to the middle of the shoulder with a .400 collet in my comparator"
    . This tells me that it is possible that at least some of your dimensional inspections my be questionable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ernest T View Post
    New Lapua 6.5 CM brass measures 1.529 from base to the middle of the shoulder with a .400 collet in my comparator. The fired brass in my rifle measures 1.537+ or - a thou and a half, so I knock the shoulder back about .003 with the FL sizing die before reloading.I talked to a couple guys at the range a month or so ago and changed the way I prep brass for reloading. I used to de-prime, clean with a rotary tumbler, dry in the oven, then lube, re-size, measure and trim if necessary. Then I'd wipe down the outside of the case with a rag and the inside with a Q-tip, load the powder, seat the bullet and crimp. Now, I lube the dirty brass, de-prime and re-size before trimming and then clean and dry. Once its clean, I load the powder, seat the bullet and crimp.
    So I was responding to this not the intire thread. I wasn't offering anything but help...like the guys at the range.Why is new Lapua brass measuring .014" under SAAMI? .008" under your obviously short headspaced chamber? This caught my eye. I try not to abuse my expensive brass and was wondering why someone else wood. I apologize for not sticking to the topic.
    The Dunning-Kruger effect is alive and well.

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robinhood View Post
    I do believe I have read this.. This tells me that it is possible that at least some of your dimensional inspections my be questionable.So I was responding to this not the intire thread. I wasn't offering anything but help...like the guys at the range.Why is new Lapua brass measuring .014" under SAAMI? .008" under your obviously short headspaced chamber? This caught my eye. I try not to abuse my expensive brass and was wondering why someone else wood. I apologize for not sticking to the topic.
    I cannot explain why those case base to shoulder measurements don't match the SAAMI specs -- your question makes me wonder why they don't. I rechecked the measurements and they are what they are. I believe them to be accurate based on other measurements like case length and diameter.

    That made me wonder about factory ammunition so I checked the two types of Hornady cartridges I have on hand. They are not Lapua, but they still have to fit the chamber of all the different brands out there.



    Hornady Black is a HPBT.



    The case base to shoulder measured almost exactly what I get when I measure new Lapua brass.



    I also had ELD Match on hand which is what I load.



    Same measurement.



    This is a new Lapua case out of my box.



    Check out this guys look at new Lapua 6.5 CM brass.

    http://www.65guys.com/a-look-at-lapu...eedmoor-brass/

    So either my measurements are correct, or a piece of my gear is out of spec and affecting my measurements. Since the two measurements I make with this setup, base to shoulder case length and case base to ogive are relative measurements, the actual number is irrelevant. On the other hand, maybe manufacturers make the cases smaller so there will be no question about the cartridge fitting all guns chambered in 6.5 creedmoor.

  16. #66
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    Very interesting on their base to datum length. The are using a whidden tool and no telling about the radius or ability to accurately zero. As I mentioned before, a small radius at the mouth of the .400 diameter shoulder gauge will decrease your BtS dimension. Ask me how I know....If you are zeroing correctly(I trust you are) there is no other explanation. I agree that it is just a reference but good to know what is going on with your tools in the long run. It was also telling that they kept having to adjust the die and bushing for spring back as the brass work hardened. Good article and thanks for posting the link Ernest. The Saul Goodman reference was classic.
    The Dunning-Kruger effect is alive and well.

  17. #67
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    I have never measured base to shoulder on any cartridge/case I have used. I just set the sizing dies so my bolt closes easily. Once a case has been fired in my chamber it really doesn't matter what the measurement is. The only detrimental effect of too much headspace (I am talking a little too much, not a tenth of an inch) is a bit shorter case life. I doubt that .006" will make that much difference.

    To get to your measurements, RH may be on the right track. Almost all dies leave a very slight 'donut' at the base of the neck. FL size dies leave the least. If that is the case then your measurement technique might be measuring to that 'donut' instead of the actual shoulder. You might try using a Sharpie on the neck and shoulder next time you size a case and see where the die is 'moving brass'.

  18. #68
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    I just measure the base to shoulder so I can bump it back a little and feel confident I actually moved brass. I looked at my .400 collet and it doesn't have a noticeable radius on it, but we're talking thousandths of an inch so it may not be readily visible.

    Up above, Robin Hood asked if I anneal brass and up until this point I haven't. The only other case I reload that has a shoulder and neck is .223 Remington, and I find more brass at the range than I can reload. Case life hasn't been very important.

    The 6.5 Creedmoor is a different story. I bought a hundred rounds of Hornady factory ammunition and was going to start reloading with those cases, but they require large primers and I haven't found any. Those cases are cleaned and sitting in a container in my reloading cabinet waiting on the world to get back to semi-normal. I ended up buying 200 Lapua small primer cases and have just finished loading the last case of that lot. Now I'm getting ready to load (reload?) for the second time. I watched a lot of YouTube videos on annealing and all the different methods available and decided to go with the keep it simple method. I've owned the gun since July and have shot exactly 170 rounds out of it, so I'm not exactly a high volume shooter. I watched a guy anneal using a torch while holding the brass in his hand and that appealed to me since it will keep me from accidently over-heating the case.

    So, with not a little trepidation, I gave it a shot. I lit the torch, adjusted it for a short flame and set it down on the work bench. Then I stuck a case into the flame, keeping the case mouth pointing away from the torch and the blue flame just short of the neck shoulder junction. I spun it back and forth with my finger tips while counting to four -- a number I settled on because people said that was enough to anneal the case without heating it excessively . I've heard some people advocated for a count of 6 or more, but four is enough to get it to change color and the case head isn't warmed up at that point. I also tried a count of 6 and the case head is just getting uncomfortably hot when you reach 6. Its the difference between casually dropping the case into the pan or throwing it. I didn't see a noticeable difference in color between the two. I did 40 cases in less than 5 minutes.

    This is what the cases look like after four seconds. I mis-aimed the flame on a couple of the cases and the discoloration didn't move much past the corner of the shoulder. I'm pretty happy with this outcome and they look almost exactly like the Lapua brass as it comes from the factory.


  19. #69
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    I use a torch as well. Mapp gas torch. But I use a cordless drill with a socket to spin the case while I’m heating. Works nicely. Eventually I do want to rig up an Induction Coil.

    I just use the standard Hornady Comparator to measure brass to the Ogive. However, I do still measure COAL as I do load within my magazine. Which at the moment is like 2.845” which is about .020” off the lands. And even that was after I throated longer. This Shillen 260 Rem barrel was unusually SHORT throated; was actually like LOW 2.700’s when I first purchased it. I throated to just about 2.865” or so(with 140gr SMK’s), as that is the MAX my Magpul mags will load anyway. And I do prefer the . I’ll load longer when I rebarrel to 260AI in the future. At that point I’ll use the 2.950” steel mags.

  20. #70
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    I went the hot gas early on. I had a hard time keeping things consistent so I backed away and started using propane again with the case in the cooler part of the flame. I go right at 6 seconds on 308 sized cases and slightly shorter time for Creedmoor. Watching for the line to develop below the shoulder while turning in a drill with a homemade holder. I will see if i can make a few extra and send one your way.
    The Dunning-Kruger effect is alive and well.

  21. #71
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    I loaded 20 cases with Winchester StaBall 6.5 and Hornady 140 ELD Match bullets and took them to the range this morning. I loaded 5 each with 39.7, 41.3, 42.1 and 42.9 gr. of powder at 2.163 CBTO. The two lower weight loads didn't group well, but both the higher weight loads grouped under 5/8". The first two groups were so bad I was totally surprised by the second two. Its amazing how quickly things can change when trying out new loads. While I was pleased with the groups, I wasn't satisfied with the velocity. The higher load weight load of 42.9 barely averaged 2600 FPS. I was getting mid 2600s out of Alliant RL-16 and would like to get that out of this powder. To do that, I'd probably have to use the max load listed in the Hornady book, but I'm not sure of the ramifications of doing that. None of my cases are showing any signs of over pressure so I think it would be okay. What do you think? Is it worth it for an extra 40-50 FPs? I don't think it matters at 100 yards, but it could at 800.

    This was the 42.1 gr. group, The flyer was a little farther out with the 42.9 Gr. group.

  22. #72
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    Nice group.

    Look at a ballistics chart. 50fps isn't that much even at 1000yd. And, it is far better to have a tiny group at 2600 than a not so tiny one at 2650.

    RL-16 will probably change more than that going from cold to hot days.

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    IMR load data shows 44gr as a max charge. If the case is not full yet keep on going...

  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by celltech View Post
    IMR load data shows 44gr as a max charge. If the case is not full yet keep on going...
    My Hornady book says 43.7 is the max load with the Hornady 140 ELD-M. It's a long bullet so that might make a difference. I'll have to check the case with a max load to see if its full.

  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by charlie b View Post
    Nice group.

    Look at a ballistics chart. 50fps isn't that much even at 1000yd. And, it is far better to have a tiny group at 2600 than a not so tiny one at 2650.

    RL-16 will probably change more than that going from cold to hot days.
    StaBall 6.5 isn't supposed change with weather, but RL-16 is supposed to be pretty consistent too so who knows. I shoot in the heat, but not so much in the cold.

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