Reply With QuoteFiring pin protrusion?Originally Posted by Robinhood
Groups aren't that bad. I suspect the wind issue was more how it was blowing on you (and your position) and not the bullet. I did appreciate how if you overlap all the groups it still looks pretty good.
I also tend to get a lot of 1 in 5 fliers. My brain gets in the way :) I used to play golf the same way
Firing pin protrusion?
So what causes those flyers. Powder? Primer? Nut? :)
The Dunning-Kruger effect is alive and well.
I think so too. We get a lot of windy days here, but luckily most of the time it blows in the direction I'm shooting. It still pushes me from behind though. I'm definitely my worst enemy when it comes to golf. It is a lot like my shooting, if I could just get rid of that one shot......Groups aren't that bad. I suspect the wind issue was more how it was blowing on you (and your position) and not the bullet. I did appreciate how if you overlap all the groups it still looks pretty good.
I also tend to get a lot of 1 in 5 fliers. My brain gets in the way :) I used to play golf the same way
I think it's me. I know it took me a lot longer to shoot the fifth shot on those last two groups than it did any of the previous four. I need to treat them all the same, but its hard to do after seeing the first four go very close together.
I've got protrusion down to .049 and the firing pin is more square than round. I'm afraid to take off too much at once so I sand a little and shoot before sanding again.
How it came from the factory. I don't remember exactly what I measured, but it was >.065" if I recall correctly.
After the Desh bushed the bolt. .059".
After two sessions with 500 grit sandpaper. .049".
Well it’s not grouping cleanly so that maybe shooter induced but Ignition would be my guess.
Why don’t You set the Firing Pin Protrusion at .035” ?
We know that light FP strikes are detrimental to accuracy, weak Fp springs can play a part as well as lack of pin fall or drag somewhere in the bolt would show on paper as spitting shots.
I’ve been wrong before and pretty sure I’ll be wrong again.
I'm working on it...slowly. I guess there is no real reason to do it in steps, except that I don't want to screw up the firing pin by taking too much off at once.
Let me ask about those fliers !! Are they random in all directions ?? Are they prone to be
vertical ?? Are they prone to be horizontal, left or right ?? I mainly shoot free recoil. With
the longer barrels, I would string them in the vertical. I was using heavy sand in the front
bag. I switched to a soft beach sand and cut the vertical in half. A bad hold and rest set up
can induce them stray hairs.....I can also attest to shooting bugholes off a concrete bench
and then have them open up to 5/8" off a not so stable wooden bench....Lots of pieces in
the puzzle, and the main reason Beer is brewed !!!
Keeping my bad Karma intact since 1952
Cool! My son-in-law brews his own as well. Another great hobby!
Yes, to all. I had not thought about sand level in the front bag. I did reduce the ammount in the rear bag to allow the butt to seat deeper in there.
Our range has some steel frame benches set up alongside the concrete ones. The concrete work much better. I think another reason they do is because the steel benches are longer and the barrel does not extent past the edge of the bench. I think I can feel the vibration of the muzzle blast on the steel bench.
So free recoil vs what I call a 'hard' hold. At what level recoil or weight of rifle does a free recoil make sense? If I have an angle on the bottom of the buttstock is free recoil still an option? Sometimes it seems like free recoil works better and sometimes it doesn't. I know part of it is me and a consistent hold. Maybe that's why the 'hard' hold works better for me, because I am in a more consistent position?
Oh, and free recoil. I have seen BR folks not even touching the gun when they 'pinch' the trigger. Others do put their shoulder and check on the stock.
And, yes, the fliers are different. If I have jerked the trigger they are routinely to the right and low. But, if I lift mu head they can be anywhere. And sometimes they are just out there and I don't know what I have done. The sight picture is perfect when the gun goes off.
Those are excellent questions and unfortunately, I haven't kept track of that data. I didn't keep the big yellow and blue targets, but I have kept all the small red and black ones so I can go back and look at that. I shoot off of a wooden bench made of 2X and 4X material. It's heavy and steady as wood can be. I wish we had concrete benches. My bags have different media -- I don't think any of it is sand, its different densities and sizes of plastic pellets. Some of them are so light they stick to things while others are heavier like rice.Let me ask about those fliers !! Are they random in all directions ?? Are they prone to be
vertical ?? Are they prone to be horizontal, left or right ?? I mainly shoot free recoil. With
the longer barrels, I would string them in the vertical. I was using heavy sand in the front
bag. I switched to a soft beach sand and cut the vertical in half. A bad hold and rest set up
can induce them stray hairs.....I can also attest to shooting bugholes off a concrete bench
and then have them open up to 5/8" off a not so stable wooden bench....Lots of pieces in
the puzzle, and the main reason Beer is brewed !!!
I don't keep a very tight grip on the gun when I shoot, I try to fluff up the rear bag so the sight is on the target without much more input from me. I hold the gun lightly with my right hand, with my thumb along the right side of the stock. My gun doesn't have a thumb rest and I wish it did. I hold the rear bag with my left hand, settle the stock into my shoulder, take a breath, release half, and squeeze the trigger. The gun goes where it goes on recoil -- I don't do anything to mitigate that. I have noticed that I tend to miss right if I loop my thumb around the pistol grip like I'm shooting a pistol.
An idea I adopted several years ago. I used to keep targets in a notebook (I print my own). Then I figured why not just keep pictures of the targets? So, that's what I do. When I get home I annotate the targets with things like range, load, sight settings, wind, temperature and then each bullet impact is numbered and the velocity noted. Also whether I am shooting off bags or bipod. I have almost all my shooting sessions going back several years now. Comes n handy sometimes with load development. If I want to change something I can go back and see if I tried it before and what the impact was, or, just for the dope.
When shooting I have a small version of the target at the bench. I shoot, look at target through the spotting scope, mark the shot location. By that time the labradar has processed the vel and that is marked. If I adjust sights I note that as well. I also note if I did something dumb, like jerk the trigger or lift my head.
I have not done the time consuming part. Loading all that info in a comprehensive spreadsheet. One of these days :)
I apologize for the long post, but I hope my experience will help those who are into equipment 'tuning' to cure accuracy issues to consider another thing to tune also.
When I really got into shooting for accuracy, like many of the guys I shot with, I figured that if the reticle was on the desired aim point, then the bullet should go there.
So, I generally blamed the rifle, ammo, stock, trigger, bipod, bags, etc. for the variations. However, even I could recognize the variation if I jerked the trigger.
I tried all kinds of 'improvements', including taking the rear sling studs off all my rifles so they wouldn't bounce on the rear bag.
Sometimes, the equipment was a cause, but after finding stocks that fit me, getting all my target triggers to have about the same pull, using an F-Class bipod and the right size rear rest, and realizing which powder and ammos worked with each rifle barrel, I still wasn't shooting as accurately as I wanted to.
Having the reticle on the desired aim point didn't guarantee small groups. I was plagued by groups with outliers that increased my group sizes.
About 9 years ago, after years of shooting and trying to blame what were really my 'shooter induced variations' for all kinds of trivial 'problems' with equipment, powders, bullets, etc.
I finally deduced that most of my variations were caused by the 'nut behind the trigger' and started to work on finding what I was doing to cause 'shooter induced variations'.
Fortunately, all my shooting has been outdoors using very stable benches on a covered firing line.
After over 18 months of concentrating on improving my trigger discipline and eliminating variations in my set-up procedures, eye relief position, and making a sure as I could be that I was in the center of the optical plane, my average group sizes reduced by 50% over a sample of 7 different rifles. It took almost 7,000 rounds of shooting to improve that much, but since I determined that I had improved, my group averages have remained about the same for more than 7 years, even as I approach 80 years old in three months.
I probably will always be susceptible to recoil causing me to get out of position and then not returning to precisely where I was set-up.
To provide some data for rifles purchased after getting my procedures improved:
My .223 Savage has averaged 0.291 for 806 5-round groups.
The best 25 loads have averaged 0.235 with a standard deviation of 0.041.
One Savage 6.5mm CM has averaged 0.339 for 618 5-round groups and the other Savage 6.5mm CM has averaged 0.364 for 541 5-round groups.
(The "other" rifle was my first 6.5mm CM and the overall average is skewed because it was used to find the bullets and powders that didn't work great that were never shot in the newer 6.5mm CM.)
The best 25 loads with the 6.5mm CMs for both rifles have averaged 0.276 with standard deviations of 0.047 and 0.040, respectively, which sort of bears out that observation.
One Savage .308 has averaged 0.419 for 301 5-round groups and the other Savage .308 has averaged 0.420 for 373 5-round groups.
The best 25 loads averaged 0.350 and 0.327 with standard deviations of 0.48 and 0.050 respectively.
I won't claim to be a great shot because I'm not, but my consistency has remained pretty good since I have worked on my set-up procedures.
I will admit that lately I have begun to notice more lapses in my concentration, and I have to work a lot harder to complete all my set-up process every time I pull the trigger, but, so far, my averages have been holding steady, maybe even improving by a few thousandths over the last few years.
When I leave something out of my set-up, I get a flyer that messes up an otherwise average group.
The variations in powder, velocity, bullet variations, etc. cause group averages to grow by 0.025 and up to 0.050.
But my severe screw-ups can cause groups to grow by 0.200 or more.
Those screw-ups are very visible in corresponding increases in the standard deviations I calculate for the groups in every load.
I have photos of about half of them, but cataloging them is a good idea.
Forgot. Sometimes when shooting things like gongs and other 'reactive' targets I take a video camera I have that has a 24x zoom.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0uNMmw85cw
These are edited and save in folders with the paper targets and chronograph data.
Its a long trip ain't it? Even though I'd been shooting over 50 years and was pretty competent, I didn't understand that when I started out to shoot long distance. I was sorely disappointed in my first shots out of this gun, using factory ammo. I knew I wouldn't be able to hit a target at 500 yards with the groups I was getting at 100 yards.
I shoot well enough to tell when my shots ought to group and when they can't. I figure there are more uncontrolled variables that come into play after I sit down at the shooting bench than there are before and there are plenty of them that come into play before you are ready to shoot. I'm still working on my equipment, including reloading setup, shooting technique and data collection and appreciate all the feedback I've gotten here.
I've been shooting this rifle for 9 months and have 1200 rounds through the barrel. I've tried five different powders, three different primers, five different bullets of two different weights, and have two bullet/powder/primer combinations I expect to group under 1/2 MOA. I've used two different scopes, two different presses, three different scales, two different sets of dies, and myriad other paraphernalia that I had no knowledge of when I started. I've learned a shitload of things about brass, primers, powders, bullets, rests, bags, bipods, scopes, and a hundred other things I didn't have a clue about when I started.
Right now I'm working on primer seating and once I settle on a single technique, I'm going to work on deciding how I'm going to anneal going forward. I figure about the time I wear out the barrel in this gun, I'll have worked out most of the variables I care to to.
And last but least.....Shooting over flags. I'm sometimes lazy in that respect when testing loads.
Our one 100 yard test lane is heavily shielded from the wind, but I've been to match's where the
cars were rocking in the parking lot....LOL
Something I've been doing when I set the rifle in the bags and settle it in. I lift the rifle out of the
rear bag and check how easy the front slides. I repeat that lift the front of the bag and see how the
butt slides. I prefer them to be equal in feel or a bit more slick on the rear bag. If the rear bag is to
grippy, the rifle can ride up on the front under recoil and throw the shot high. A hard front bag can
induce bounce and compound an even higher shot. I put a thin teflon strip in my Protektor DR bag
to quarantee a good and smooth track.
Keeping my bad Karma intact since 1952
Fuj
I have used the same rear bag for more years than I would like to admit.
Even switched to fine lava sand for the ears in the first year.
I will try the teflon strip to minimize friction. Thanks for the tip.
Also glad for that tip. I have used talcum powder on the bags just for that, but, I also have to admit I am not consistent at doing so.
Flags. Yep. Some days I am very good about checking them before a shot. Other days I have fired three or four rounds and then thought, 'hey, the wind is blowing'. Duh. (and it blows here a lot :) ). But, I do check it a lot at the 500yd, 600yd and 1000yd tgts. Not that it does me any good :)
I still see guy's using dryer sheets for good results. I have a bottle of the powder sold by Bench Rite but makes
more of a mess then anything else. There is also the slippery tape sold by the same company that quite a few
use. I just don't like the looks. One of the buds has a patch of silk that he uses on the front bag. Like always, it's
always test and tune.
Keeping my bad Karma intact since 1952
I went to the long range today and they have reduced the maximum distance from 1250 to 1100 yards because of the deer blind the neighbor put up next to the property line. It was kind of a jerk move, but it is what it is. I shot 16 rounds of 140 gr Nosler RDF, with 42 gr of H4350, at 2.298 CBTO. I bought a Leupold RX-2800 range finder and the targets ranged at 205, 267, 400, 515, 585, 680, 687, 847, 925, and 1101 yards. That's slightly different from the stated yardage. I used the Hornady 4DOF app to calculate the hold overs and windage. These bullets shoot really well with that load.
I started near and shot one shot each out to 687 yards and three each at the remaining distances. I can hear the rounds hit, with my ear muffs on, up to 687 yards and I didn't miss any of them. I thought I missed the first shot at 847 yards because I couldn't hear it. Then I realized it took so long for the round to reach the target, I could actually lift one of my ear pieces and hear the target impact. I didn't miss any other shots. The target at 847 yards is a pretty big torso, the target at 925 yards looks like a 24" gong and the target at 1101 yards is a big square, maybe 3' X3'. Not a really challenging target. Without a spotter I couldn't tell where I was hitting it.
The primers were still cratering today, so after shooting, I worked on the firing pin some more. Its now down to .041" with a pretty square profile. I'll take it down a little more after the next session at the range if the primers are still cratering.
Here's a link to the one mile range in Burnet for those interested in shooting that distance. I'm sure there are plenty of them around the country.
https://www.rprrange.com/
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