Reply With QuoteThat's good to hear, I also ordered 250 Barnes Match Burners in 140 grain.
Had good results with the Nosler RDF 140s They averaged 0.307 with H4350 for 5-round groups - but it is a small sample. I will be hunting for more of those bullets so I can try them again.
That's good to hear, I also ordered 250 Barnes Match Burners in 140 grain.
140 RDF's.....42gr. Reloder 16.....BR2 primers.....010" off the lands.....Hornady brass, no turn neck.Originally Posted by CFJunkie
24" Criterion / 8 twist barrel on a PTA action. Bug holes at 100.
Keeping my bad Karma intact since 1952
This is the data for all the groups using 130 grain ELD-M, Winchester 760 powder, and CCI 450 magnum SRPs. The first thing I'm happy about is my ES and SD numbers are improving! I realize that these are only 3 round groups, but I've been working hard to get more consistency in my reloading techniques.
I had a little trouble with the chronograph there in the middle and had to reboot it to get it to start reading again.
I didn't see anything of interest in the 42.5 gr loads. The groups weren't terrible, but not good either. The other loads, 43.4, 44.2 and 45.1 gr all grouped better closer to the lands -- I can actually load these 130 grain ELDs pretty close to the lands and feed them from my magazine! I'll be loading some 5 round groups between these two loads to see if I can find a consistently good load.
1 Cartridge Base to lands 2.274 2 Charge 42.5 gr Shot 1 Shot 2 Shot 3 ES SD Avg. Group Size 3 CBTO 2.259 2774 2791 2794 20 9 2786 1 5/8 4 " 2.244 2825 2803 2798 27 12 2808 1 1/2 5 " 2.229 2802 2793 2802 9 4 2799 7/8 6 " 2.214 2783 2777 2797 20 8 2785 1 1/4 7 " 2.199 shots didn't register 1 1/4 8 " 2.184 2753 2709 NR 2731 7/8 9 " 2.174 Shots didn't register 1 3/8 10 " 2.164 2708 2751 2734 43 18 2751 11/16 11 2777 12 Charge 43.4 gr Shot 1 Shot 2 Shot 3 ES SD Avg. Group Size 13 CBTO 2.259 Shots didn't register 14 " 2.244 2870 2883 2875 13 7 2876 5/8 15 " 2.229 2843 2832 2840 9 6 2835 3/4 16 " 2.214 2830 2833 2837 7 2 2833 1 17 " 2.199 2843 2832 2837 11 6 2837 7/8 18 " 2.184 2811 2830 2833 22 10 2824 9/16 19 " 2.174 2808 2809 2824 16 7 2813 1 3/8 20 " 2.164 2822 2820 2813 9 4 2818 1 21 12 6 2834 22 Charge 44.2gr Shot 1 Shot 2 Shot 3 ES SD Avg. Group Size 23 CBTO 2.259 2856 2874 2870 18 8 2867 7/8 24 " 2.244 2825 2843 2836 11 5 2835 1 25 " 2.229 2873 2851 NR 22 11 2862 1 5/16 26 " 2.214 2824 2825 NR 1 1 2824 1 5/8 27 " 2.199 2860 2853 2857 7 3 2856 1 3/16 28 " 2.184 2831 2818 2833 15 7 2830 9/16 29 " 2.174 2838 2853 2845 15 6 2845 1 1/8 30 " 2.164 2819 2779 2784 40 18 2795 1 31 16 7 2839 32 Charge 45.1 gr Shot 1 Shot 2 Shot 3 ES SD Avg. Group Size 33 CBTO 2.259 2893 2889 2891 4 2 2891 5/8 34 " 2.244 2781 2762 2775 19 10 2772 1 35 " 2.229 2900 2913 2885 28 11 2899 5/8 36 " 2.214 2810 2814 2804 10 4 2809 1 1/2 37 " 2.199 2910 2918 2920 10 4 2916 1 1/2 38 " 2.184 2915 2905 2926 21 9 2915 1 39 " 2.174 2919 2920 2924 5 2 2921 1 1/2 40 " 2.164 2922 2915 2912 10 4 2916 1 3/8 41 13 6 2880
I've collected 4 additional 140 grain bullets to try out. These are the loads I've worked up from the loading data from different sources on the web. The data for Nosler, Sierra, and Barnes came from their website. The data for the Berger bullets came from shootersreference.com. Only Sierra and Hornady provided data for each velocity.
Nosler provided a starting load, mid load and max load. They also provided velocities.
Sierra provided min and max load data as well as intermediate loads and velocities for each..
Barnes only provided minimum and maximum loads with velocities and was the only manufacturer to identify a compressed load.
Shooters Reference provided the minimum load, without velocity, and maximum load, with velocity, for the Berger bullets.
Where I didn't have data for intermediate velocities, I tried to split the difference between the higher and lower powder charge. Sometimes there was only one intermediate step, but other times there were four or five.
It took over 40 grains of powder to obtain 2600 FPS with the Hornady bullets so I'm thinking I'll just start a step or two below that amount for each of the new bullets. That means I'll start the Nosler at 38.6, Barnes at 38.2, Sierra at 38.4, and Berger at 39.2.
Does this sound like a good plan?
Alliant RL-16 2300 2350 2400 2450 2500 2550 2600 2650 2700 2750 2800 Hornady 140 Gr. Match ELD-M 35.3 38.2 37 37.8 38.7 39.5 40.4 41.2 42.1 Nosler 140 Gr. CC RDF 35 35.9 36.8 37.7 38.6 39.5 40.4 41.3 42.1 42.8 43.5 Barnes 140 Gr. Match Burner 38.2 38.9 40.6 41.3 41.9 42.5c Sierra 140 Gr. MatchKing HPBT 35 35.8 36.7 37.6 38.4 39.3 40.1 40.9 41.8 42.6 43.5 Berger 140 Gr. Match Target VLD Bullets 39.2 40.5 41.1 41.8 42.5 43.6 My most accurate loads with Hornady 140 Gr. ELD-M were 40.2, 40.4, and 40.6 which yielded velocities from 2610-2640 FPS
Ernest T, look at the trouble it took to get Your RL16. With a 6.5 Creedmoor, 140grn bullet, I would not waist 1 kernel of powder on any load less than 2,600 FPS. The Berger Bullet is a prime example. It is designed for long range target and hunting. So it starts at a minimum load, that provides a velocity suitable for the designed range. Anything below that is useless information. You are testing 4 bullets. What is the end goal for each of these bullets ? It is of no value to find a tight node on the low end, only to find it does not provide enough velocity at range. The further out we go, the more velocity we need at the beginning to overcome the WIND. This is why You have been asked, What is You end goal ?
When I start with a mfg load data I normally start 1gn or maybe 2gn lower than max. Load a ladder in 0.1 or 0.2gn increments up to max (or sticky extraction). These are at least 3 round groups. Once I see a node I do 5 round groups around the node to verify vel and accuracy.
I have found if I do this I use up the least amount of resources to find an accurate load.
Sometimes I also do a seating depth series. 0.005, 0.010, 0.020 from lands. 5 rounds each.
If I do want to test a jammed depth (eg, using Berger vld bullets) I will do the ladder with jammed rounds. Sometimes there is a significant difference.
I really don't care where the mfg minimum is as I never load there with jacketed ammo. I also don't really care what vel I am at as long as I am on a node. I do check to make sure I am not too far above the mfg max vel (adjusted for barrel length) for that powder/bullet. Yes, I measure vel of almost every bullet I shoot.
^^^ excellent advice ^^^
The end goal is to see if one of these bullets are more accurate out to 1200 yards than the Hornady ELD-M I've been using. I'm also learning a lot in the process, which I enjoy.
Alrighty then, I'll start higher up on the list. I'm going to start with the Barnes Match Burner. Barnes's data was obtained with a 24" barrel and my rifle has a 22" barrel so I'll need a little more powder to obtain 2600 FPS -- that looks like a starting load of 41.9 Gr. of powder. The distance from cartridge base to the lands with this bullet is 2.300" which puts the COAL at 2.910. I'm thinking of using the procedure below, which is from the Berger website.
"Trying to find the CBTO that puts you in the sweet spot by moving .002 to .010 will take so long the barrel may be worn out by the time you sort it out if you don’t give up first. Since the sweet spot is .030 to .040 wide we recommend that you conduct the following test to find your rifles VLD sweet spot.
Load 24 rounds at the following CBTO if you are a target competition shooter who does not worry about jamming a bullet:
- .010 into (touching) the lands (jam) 6 rounds
- .040 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
- .080 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
- .120 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
Shoot 2 (separate) 3 shot groups in fair conditions to see how they group. The remarkable reality of this test is that one of these 4 CBTOs will outperform the other three by a considerable margin. Once you know which one of these 4 CBTO shoots best then you can tweak the CBTO +/- .002 or .005. Taking the time to set this test up will pay off when you find that your rifle is capable of shooting the VLD bullets very well (even at 100 yards)."
Another question.
I also remeasured the Hornady ELD-M case from base to lands and got .008 longer than when I initially measured the distance. I've got 800 rounds through the barrel now, does the distance increase with throat erosion?
YES...800 rounds could easily equal.008” throat erosion.
Thanks, that's what I was hoping.
Not sure in all calibers, but, the Hornady ELD bullets I have fired in my .308 (155 and 173) and .223 (75gn) all liked a decent jump. Kinda like Sierra SMK's that I have found like somewhere around .020 jump. Berger 155's in the .308 liked to be jammed or very close to the lands.
I do not rely on a gauge measurement of CBTO. I chamber dummy rounds seating out the bullet in a 'loose neck' case. I then set my seating die by reference off of this dummy round.
They like a jump in my gun too.
How do you keep the dummy round in the correct position when you pull the case out of the chamber? When I use the gauge, even slight pressure on the bullet sticks it in the lands and I have to push it out with a 1/8" dowel or bang the butt of the gun on the work bench to dislodge the bullet.
I slightly size the neck to hold the bullet. Take the ejector and extractor out of the bolt. Push gently until you can close the bolt. Then open bolt. Cleaning rod in from muzzle and push it out, also gently. If you use too much neck tension it will jam too much. It is really just enough to hold the bullet in place.
I think I'm probably too ham fisted to gently push it out!
I spent the day thinking about velocities and the load data provided by the manufacturers. I get 2620 FPS with 40.2 grains of RL-16 with a 140 grain Hornady ELD-M bullet, which on the chart provided by Hornady, is slightly less than the powder needed for 2700 FPS. That is significantly less powder than what Barnes, Nosler, Sierra or Berger call for to achieve 2700 FPS. Physics doesn't change, if 40.4 grains of powder will push a 140 grain Hornady bullet down the barrel at 2620 FPS, it should push a Barnes, Berger, or Sierra 140 grain bullet down the same barrel at the same speed. I decided to ignore the chart and loaded a Barnes Match Burner in .2 grain increments from 40.4 to 41.8 grains of powder. The high end of that range is close to what their charts call for to get 2700 FPS, but I shouldn't even have to use those loads. I'll get the velocity I need, if not, I can skip over loads to get where I need to be. Either way, I can disassemble the rounds I don't shoot and reuse them to figure out bullet seating.
Changing bullets changes the physics. Because of the differences in construction of said bullets. There is more to it than just the bullet weight.
Yeah I get that, but I’m betting weight has the most impact on the first 20’ feet, which is what I’m interested in for measuring velocity. I’m starting where I think I need to be in my gun, not a generic test bed gun. This starts me well below max and I can skip loads if it’s too slow.
You shoot at 1,200yds. I shoot at 1,000yds. I want the maximum velocity I can get when the bullet arrives at the target. My first load development is PRESSURE TEST. I do this in My garage, shooting into a suitable backstop. I start with the bullet in the lands, and work up until pressure signs become apparent. This method will indicate the max pressure the case can stand. As we back out of the lands, the pressure reduces. But now we have a base line for MAXIMUM load. With what the wind does to ballets at 600yds and beyond, I want all the velocity I can get, THAT SHOOTS ACCURATELY. That means eventually loading and tuning for the desired target range. Only the target can reveal if the level of success has been achieved.
Be safe and proceed at Your own risk !! PS ... most distance shooters find their desired loads near Max Pressure.
Interesting, I've only been doing this for a short while and have found that my gun is not very accurate near max loads. I've noticed it with RL-16, H4350 and StaBall 6.5 with the Hornady 140 ELD-Ms. It could very well be the bullet or the seating depth and not the rifle because I've stuck with seating depths that I can load in my magazine. I've struggled to find an economical way to identify powder loads. Mainly I've been shooting groups every .2 grains until I find several in a row that group close to 1/2 MOA, but that eats up powder, primers and bullets.
I've loaded rounds for the Barnes Match Burner's into the lands so we'll see how that goes.
I had one of the most disorganized days I have had in a long time, but it actually turned out to be a terrific shooting experience.
It started with the weather, it was supposed to be 61 and cloudy with a pretty good breeze blowing from the north. That's okay for shooting because the range points almost due north so there wouldn't be much side to side wind. However, by the time I got to the range, it had only gone up to 45 and had started to drizzle, blowing water under the roof over the shooting positions.
I used the targets I had labeled for 40.6 and 40.8 grains to zero my scope so right off the bat I screwed up. I was happy with the group I got with RL-16. I shot two rounds, then adjusted down 1 MOA and shot the other three. I loaded these rounds to the land with Barnes Match Burner 140 grain bullets and was flabbergasted by how accurate they were with RL-16. I had one round that wouldn't chamber and measured it when I got home. It was .003 too long and I thought I verified all of them were 2.300 last night when I loaded them. I seated it to 2.300 and the bolt closed on it. I also didn't have any loads of 41.4, none in the box or the bag. I found them on the bench when I got home. Go figure.
I was pretty close on my guess that what I had achieved with RL-16 and the Hornady 140 grain bullet in my gun would be closer to what I got with the Barnes Match Burner 140 grain bullet than the info provided by Barnes. I also got great ES and SD with these loads. I've found that CCI 450 Magnum Small Rifle Primers give much better ES and SD than regular SRP.
My Velocity
40.6 - 2597
40.8 - 2612
41.0 - 2634
41.2 - 2648
41.4 - screwed up
41.6 - 2656
41.8 - 2664
42.0 - 2670
Barnes Data
38.9 - 2500
41.3 - 2600
42.5 - 2700
These rounds were crazy accurate, but leaves me with a quandary. They are way longer than my magazine so I'd have to hand load them. I wonder what would happen if I shortened them to fit the mag?
The forgotten rounds.
The primers of the 42.0 grain load. I finally understand cratered primers and will address that soon.
Just don't push it hard enough to distort the bullet.
If you want an easier way to do it then size a case and cut a slot in the neck, then seat the bullet.
Some bullets are very sensitive to bullet jump/jam. The Bergers I used in my .308 were like that. Groups less than 1/2MOA unless they were loaded 0.010 off the lands. Opened up to 1MOA. They would not fit the mag at that length. Not an issue for me since I don't use the mag anyway.
I can hand feed them, I don't shoot very fast anyway.
Posting Permissions
Bookmarks