12BVSS new barrel (6BR)

[CFJunkie]

Good work, charlie b

By the way, I don't think you can ever get over 'getting lazy' or losing concentration about set up occasionally.
I still find that when I am shooting really well, I sort of expect everything to go right and begin to let my concentration lapse.
Sure enough, things begin to go south until I get myself under control again and get back to concentrating.

Lately, when I am shooting well, I have become more cognizant of that trait and try to avoid letting my concentration lapse. It often works, but it doesn't always.

[charlie b]

Thanks. That is what I observe too. When I start shooting well I 'get into the groove'. It lasts for a while, then it all goes away. Suddenly, it seems, I can't find the position again or smoothly engage the target. If I am smart that day, I stop, get up and walk around a bit to see if I can 'get it back'. Sometimes I can, sometimes I can't.

[South Prairie jim]

Thats good shooting for only a starting load of powder, most br run closer to 30 gr of Varget . 1000 yard shooting with a 6 mm can be a struggle in the wind and even more so with low charges.

[Robinhood]

Fine shooting there Charlie. Shooting like that keeps you coming back for more!

[charlie b]

Thats good shooting for only a starting load of powder, most br run closer to 30 gr of Varget . 1000 yard shooting with a 6 mm can be a struggle in the wind and even more so with low charges.

I understand. The 103 ELDX wants to go 'much' faster with same charge. The 103 bullet and 28gn load gives me 2780fps vs 2680fps with the 108ELD match bullets. 28.9gn with the 108 gives me 2750fps.

So those are the two loads I use. The 103 at 28.0gn and 108 at 28.9gn. Ballistics for these two loads is essentially identical.

I know I am giving up about 150fps. Not that big a deal for me. Same reason I didn't feel the need to get a Dasher.

This is not for competition, only for fun. Hitting a milk jug at 1000yd consistently is my 'need' :) It pushes me to learn how to judge wind better.

[charlie b]

Fine shooting there Charlie. Shooting like that keeps you coming back for more!

Thanks, and yes it does!! :)

[charlie b]

Just wanted to add how much I like this combination. It is still shocking to me that a tiny little cartridge like this can be so accurate at such long ranges.

The 103gn ELDX bullets are still more accurate than the 108gn ELD match bullets. Can't figure it out. Both bullets are essentially the same shape and length. The only thing I can come up with is that the CG of the bullet might be a little different, although I see no signs of instability with either of them. Oh well.

1" groups at 200yds seem to be the norm with the 103. Was playing at 1000yd with it. When I got the wind right it was hitting an 8" target regularly. At 600 I shot 5rnds at a target and had a 3.5" group. Might have been better if I hadn't jerked one. Four rounds went into 1.75"!

I have expanded a bit and got some 90gn ELDX bullets and tried them this last week. While doing a ladder (15 bullets at 0.1gn increments) the first 5 and last 5 went into less than 1" at 200yd. A lot of change in vel, but, it also highlighted the nodes for me. So will explore the 2980fps and 3050fps loads.

Have to look into the Vapor Trail bullets now.

[charlie b]

I also like the 103 V tac automated bullets from Vapor trails, they are extremely consistent at a great price and Tom keeps plenty in stock.
The bad thing about 6 br testing at 100 yards is that all the rounds go in such a small area it’s tough analyzing targets, most of my testing is at 300 yards and beyond allowing separation between bullets.

Jim,

THANK YOU!! I got some of the Vtac bullets and just finished shooting a few groups. Short story is I shot the smallest 200yd group ever for me, on the first loads with these bullets. 0.49" at 200yd!! Three of the rounds in one largish hole.

I will be getting a lot more of these.

Longer story. As above I have had great results with the 103gn and 90gn ELD-X bullets from Hornady. Why the 108 ELD match bullets don't do as well remains a mystery. I bought the Vtacs just to see how much better they might be. The price was indeed good, even for just the 100 I got to do some load development.

First time out I didn't expect much. It was cold, low 30's, but no wind. I had 20 of the 103ELDX bullets as a 'control'. For this initial shooting I decided to use the best ELDX load, 28.0gn Varget, and then go up and down 0.2gn. So the Vtacs were 10 each at 27.8, 28.0 and 28.2gn. The ELDX's did just as expected, 1" and 1.2" at 200yd. The 27.8gn load was not promising. 1.5" and almost 2".

Then the 28gn load. First 5 rounds went into 0.9" and one of those rounds was pulled a bit. I took a minute here to calm down a bit and fired the next 5. The first bullet hit within 0.2" of the point of aim. The second was touching it. The third I felt myself twitch just a bit and the round went a bit left. The 4th round was touching the first two and the fifth was again to the left but not as far. 0.49"

The 28.2gn load started out with two rounds touching each other. Unfortunately the rest went into 1". The next 5 were the same, 1". Still, not shabby at all.

To say I was shocked is an understatement. First, that the bullets are that good. Second, my skills have improved. I can now see when I am doing something wrong, like rushing a shot, not holding the aimpoint precisely, a sideways force on the trigger, etc. In the past I have described myself as a 1/2MOA shooter. To be honest I still am, at least until I can do better on a more consistent basis.

So, just to reiterate, those Vtac bullets from Vapor Trails are now my go to bullet for the 6BR. The bonus is they are close to the same cost as the Hornady bullets.

[Dave Hoback]

Mind=Charly!

Awesome, awesome stuff brother. What gets me, is if you simply look through some various forums, Calguns, AR15, Highroad… etc… Accuracy like this is common place….. right? Oh yeah. Everyone knows the AR10’s/15’s are doing this.. People buy surplus Swiss rifles and claim accuracy of this nature. And let’s not forget that just about any M1 Garand will easily post groups like this. “Why, my cousin just did a similar group with his M14 at 300 yards recently!” LOL!

Seriously, to those of us who know just how difficult this is, I’m sure I’m not not the only one impressed Charlie. I am incredibly happy posting accuracy like that at 100yds! Sub .5MOA! Forget 200!

[South Prairie jim]

Jim,

THANK YOU!! I got some of the Vtac bullets and just finished shooting a few groups. Short story is I shot the smallest 200yd group ever for me, on the first loads with these bullets. 0.49" at 200yd!! Three of the rounds in one largish hole.

I will be getting a lot more of these.

Longer story. As above I have had great results with the 103gn and 90gn ELD-X bullets from Hornady. Why the 108 ELD match bullets don't do as well remains a mystery. I bought the Vtacs just to see how much better they might be. The price was indeed good, even for just the 100 I got to do some load development.

First time out I didn't expect much. It was cold, low 30's, but no wind. I had 20 of the 103ELDX bullets as a 'control'. For this initial shooting I decided to use the best ELDX load, 28.0gn Varget, and then go up and down 0.2gn. So the Vtacs were 10 each at 27.8, 28.0 and 28.2gn. The ELDX's did just as expected, 1" and 1.2" at 200yd. The 27.8gn load was not promising. 1.5" and almost 2".

Then the 28gn load. First 5 rounds went into 0.9" and one of those rounds was pulled a bit. I took a minute here to calm down a bit and fired the next 5. The first bullet hit within 0.2" of the point of aim. The second was touching it. The third I felt myself twitch just a bit and the round went a bit left. The 4th round was touching the first two and the fifth was again to the left but not as far. 0.49"

The 28.2gn load started out with two rounds touching each other. Unfortunately the rest went into 1". The next 5 were the same, 1". Still, not shabby at all.

To say I was shocked is an understatement. First, that the bullets are that good. Second, my skills have improved. I can now see when I am doing something wrong, like rushing a shot, not holding the aimpoint precisely, a sideways force on the trigger, etc. In the past I have described myself as a 1/2MOA shooter. To be honest I still am, at least until I can do better on a more consistent basis.

So, just to reiterate, those Vtac bullets from Vapor Trails are now my go to bullet for the 6BR. The bonus is they are close to the same cost as the Hornady bullets.

Yeah, they shoot pretty well to say the least. Tom specs out the mold used for these bullets to maintain quality control, I could tell you who produces them for Tom but I won’t.
The 28.2 ish node you are enjoying is just the beginning of the performance level available, when you continue up the ladder you will find another node starting around 29.8 going as far as 30.1.
Welcome to a new world of accurate shooting, be safe , have fun and keep those VTac close to the lands.
jim

[prdatr]

Jim,

THANK YOU!! I got some of the Vtac bullets and just finished shooting a few groups. Short story is I shot the smallest 200yd group ever for me, on the first loads with these bullets. 0.49" at 200yd!! Three of the rounds in one largish hole.

I will be getting a lot more of these.

Longer story. As above I have had great results with the 103gn and 90gn ELD-X bullets from Hornady. Why the 108 ELD match bullets don't do as well remains a mystery. I bought the Vtacs just to see how much better they might be. The price was indeed good, even for just the 100 I got to do some load development.

First time out I didn't expect much. It was cold, low 30's, but no wind. I had 20 of the 103ELDX bullets as a 'control'. For this initial shooting I decided to use the best ELDX load, 28.0gn Varget, and then go up and down 0.2gn. So the Vtacs were 10 each at 27.8, 28.0 and 28.2gn. The ELDX's did just as expected, 1" and 1.2" at 200yd. The 27.8gn load was not promising. 1.5" and almost 2".

Then the 28gn load. First 5 rounds went into 0.9" and one of those rounds was pulled a bit. I took a minute here to calm down a bit and fired the next 5. The first bullet hit within 0.2" of the point of aim. The second was touching it. The third I felt myself twitch just a bit and the round went a bit left. The 4th round was touching the first two and the fifth was again to the left but not as far. 0.49"

The 28.2gn load started out with two rounds touching each other. Unfortunately the rest went into 1". The next 5 were the same, 1". Still, not shabby at all.

To say I was shocked is an understatement. First, that the bullets are that good. Second, my skills have improved. I can now see when I am doing something wrong, like rushing a shot, not holding the aimpoint precisely, a sideways force on the trigger, etc. In the past I have described myself as a 1/2MOA shooter. To be honest I still am, at least until I can do better on a more consistent basis.

So, just to reiterate, those Vtac bullets from Vapor Trails are now my go to bullet for the 6BR. The bonus is they are close to the same cost as the Hornady bullets.

Charlie,
What is the twist on the barrel? Do you think that has something to do with the better performance with the lighter bullet? Have you looked into the DTAC from Tubbs?

[charlie b]

Jim,

Thanks. I may try the higher node with these just to see. I hit it with the 103ELDX bullets and performance was about the same, but, that might have been just me or the bullet. Bullet jump I haven't messed with either. I set them the same as the Hornady's, I think .010" but not sure. To me it doesn't matter who makes them for Tom. As long as he can still get them made I'll be happy.

I will make another couple of excursions from this load and see where it goes. Even if this is the best one I'll be happy as a pig in ---. To get any better I will have to improve my skills...a lot. As you know, the difference between 1/2MOA and 1/4MOA is a wide gulf when it comes to the shooter.

prdatr,

No, I have only used the Hornady's and now these. Tubb's website only shows DTAC loaded ammo (Sierra bullets). FWIW, the Vapor Trail bullets were $55/100 delivered to the door. Hornady 103's were just over $50/100 last time I saw some on the shelf. They are lower mail order if you can get shipping cost down.

Barrel twist is 1:8 which should be good for 108gn bullets. They are the same length and shape (as far as I can tell) as the 103's so not sure what the problem might be. Maybe it is a CG issue due to a different jacket thickness (103gn is considered a hunting bullet and 108gn is not). Could be I am off the node a bit with the 108s, although load workup procedure was same for the two bullets, ie, other powder loads resulted in larger groups.

Dave,

Thanks. Yeah, 1/2MOA has been a hurdle for me, both in loading and shooting. It still is. Not sure I will ever equal that group again, but, it was great seeing all those bullets go to the same spot! This is kinda like the 1/2MOA cast bullet targets I have, or the >1MOA cast bullet targets at 500yd. It is fun when the planets align.

An off topic interesting experiment:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHZxFLsDLlE

[Dave Hoback]

Yeah… but I’m talking about .5MOA @ 100yds. Charlie, your .49” group is .23MOA at 200yds! That is impressive, I don’t care you ya
are! Not something I can do, even with the equipment. And don’t feel the least bit bad admitting it. I can hit a the target I want no problem; even having lost the edge I once had. But that is next level. What’s more.. shows that Savage is capable of hanging with the best. (Regardless of $Expensive$ rifle guys admitting it, LOL!)

[GrenGuy]

If You like the Vtac’s, You would really like Tom’s hand made customs. Cost considerably more and anyone just ordering them now would be at the back of a year long waiting list. Bart’s Bullets are excellent also, but same situation.

But Berger Hybrids and VLD’s are fine for Steel and Milk Jugs at 1,000 yds. I prefer Hybrids when I can get them.

In my experience, the 108’s and heavier are too heavy for the 6mmBR, for the accuracy You’re looking for.

If You want to move up, I suggest the 6mmBRA, not the Dasher. Above Dasher power, I would go with the 6GT or the 6x47. That’s where the 108 and heavier 6mm pills come to life in My book.

Just Me talkin here :)

edit: and Jim is right, the extra MV at the higher nodes will be welcome in the wind and at 1,000yds.

[CFJunkie]

Big improvements charlie b!

It looks like you are confident with your new rifle, and it must fit you well.
A good fit makes you more comfortable and minimizes some of the variations that we all exhibit.

What powder are you using and are you loading the same powder charge for the 103s and the 108s.
That might change the harmonics of the two bullets in the barrel and move your node.
I find that even different bullets of the same weight require that I tune my loads, but, as you know, I load to achieve a specific exit time to optimize the harmonics.
When I get within 0.005 msec of the exit time, I seem to get the optimum out of each type of bullet.
Some bullets perform better than others, but the differences in good bullets like the Hornady ELD-Ms are usually small.
Of course, out past 200 or 300 yards, a lot of other factors come into play and the bullet ballistic coefficient and bullet shape begin to really differentiate performance.

The accuracy difference might not be the 108 bullets, per se, as much as you need to tune the load a bit to account for whatever differences there are between the 103 and the 108 grain bullets.
The two bullets might look the same, but they are probably different in length or in the base to ogive measurement which would change the jump.

With my 6.5mm CM, I recognized a difference in accuracy between the 143 ELD-X and the 140 and 147 ELD-Ms. But when I adjusted for it, the ELD-X held its own with the two ELD-M bullets.

[CFJunkie]

Never mind about the powder, I found you are using Varget buried in the text of post #1.
Sorry for the dumb question when the answer was there all the time.

[charlie b]

Yep, Varget for all of this. :) The 108gn had a node at the 28.9gn point, which was almost the same vel as the 103gn at 28.0gn. I tried both at the higher node as well and had same difference in accuracy, but the 108s at the higher node had some sticky cases. Still is a bit baffling. It is probably just a twist rate and CG location issue. The rifle does fit better since I modified it with an adjustable cheek piece. I also got some N150 today, mainly for my cast bullet loads, but, might try it in this gun as well.

Dave, Thanks. Yeah 1/4MOA is new territory for me. I am hoping this is not a one time deal. After all, if you shoot enough eventually the bullets will go in the same spot :)

Gren, I think you may be right about the 108's. I don't have any more and probably won't ever buy anymore with the Vtac's doing this well. I used Bergers in my .308 and they did well, but, only if touching or jammed a bit into the lands. Given the cost I will stick with the Vtac's. And I will try the higher node with these to see how well they do. Since I don't compete I am happy with these and the lower vel of the BR vs BRA or other cartridges. I did think about the choice a lot before I bought the barrel. It was a tough decision between the BR, BRA, 6x47 and 6CM. The 'moderate' velocity levels (and resulting longer barrel life) along with no case mods was why I stuck with the BR.

[charlie b]

So, I was out this morning with the Vtac's again. I fired the 28gn load again. As I suspected it was not a 1/4MOA group :) but it was 1/2MOA.

I also loaded up 29.6, 29.8, 30.0 and 30.2gn loads. Those were a bit interesting. The upper two loads kinda 'overlapped' each other in velocity. They were still a bit less than MOA. I'm used to a 'bad' load being 2MOA :) The 29.8 load had an es of 19 and sd of 6, as well as two 5 shot, 0.7" groups at 200yd. Avg vel was 2925fps.

Will go out next time and try the 28.0 and 29.8gn load against each other at longer range and see what they do.

It is almost 'fun' to see mistakes in shooting. When the crosshairs move, so does the bullet. Amazing. :)

Meanwhile I need to order a bunch more of these bullets. Glad Christmas is coming :)

[Fuj']

Bart’s Bullets are excellent also, but same situation.

For Barts Bullets (Bart Sauter) I'll recommend at this time his 68 gr Avenger. The Tack Driver
match that was just held In South Carolina Invites the top gunners of all disciplines to compete
at 300 meters, both score and group. With the 68's Bart won over 89 shooters and fellow shooter
Jerimiah Keefe took 5th overall using them.....

[charlie b]

I have to say, this thing is addictive. I did try the higher node and found it at 29.8gn Varget, 2925fps (es 16, sd 6). And not unusual to have 5 rounds with an es less than 5fps. The problem is that I find that if my groups aren't much less than 1/2MOA I am very disappointed. For example, I had a three shot group at 600yd, with all three touching (!), and then messed it up with the next two, so the group was a 'huge' 4"

LOL now I totally understand the 'rabbit hole'.

[charlie b]

So, last one on the 103gn Vtac's. Wind was blowing just a little, a bit less than 5mph. My 600yd target had 4 in 2" and then one off to the right about 6in, at exactly the same elevation as the other 4. Obviously I screwed the wind call on that one. The 1000yd target was a 10" group. Once I figured that out I hit the 6" gong 2 out of 5 shots. Not too shabby for me in some wind. Yeah, I am hooked. :)

But, I also got my new bullet mold. From NOE a 108gn. Will report back when I get some results from them.

[South Prairie jim]

Nice shooting..