It's diminishing returns for sure after that ~$2000 price point. But if you have the cash, go for it...but personally I would get a ZCO.
I was talking to my good friend in Arizona last night & he told me that he is going to have a new custom rifle built with one of the custom Titanium Actions. On top of it he is planning to put a Tangent Theta. A $5K optic.... $5,000... That’s Five-Thousand DOLLARS! Now, I’m not the oldest shooter here. Or the most knowledgeable. But I am rather proficient in both areas. I’ve been at it, this hobby, for a long enough time that it’s become a passion for me. I enjoy all aspects of firearms. And I’ve been at it long enough, that I’m from a time when a $1500 piece of Glass was considered “Top Tier”. Then something happened... and it seemed to me, almost overnight. The prices on optics started climbing. And they didn’t stop! Now I know the saying “you get what you pay for!” And I do believe that- to a point! For instance, it reminds me of the custom knife world...because, well..., I’m a custom knife maker. In knifemaking, there are two methods; Forging & Stock removal. Regardless of what some might think they know, STOCK REMOVAL is how modern, and ALL high performance knives are made. Reason being, the High Alloy/high speed steel used in modern knives, CAN’T be forged. Ya heat it up to 2,250F and try hitting it with a hammer...and this steel will LAUGH at you! Anyhoo, I sell knives occasionally. My knives are high performance, made with super premium materials! I use CPM steels, Titanium bolts, and Carbon Fiber I laminate myself. Super, super high end stuff! The most expensive blade I’ve ever sold was $250. Now comes along Mr. KnifeSMIFF, with his FORGERY... and bangs out his blade from simple carbon steel(likely some JUNK steel he found in the trash, or paid PENNIES for!). But this guy has a name in the knife world, so he sells this knife for $1400! A knife... $1400?? I wouldn’t even if I could, sell knives for that! It’s just dishonest. This knife won’t do anything that a knife made like mine WON’T! And in fact, will come up short against a knife like the ones I make. And so I harken back to Top Tier Glass. While an IOR VALDADA 4-28x50 is my Dream scope, for $3,100, it’s never going to happen. But even that $3,100 is NOTHING compared to some other optics out there.
Are scope manufacturers continuing to jack up these prices, simply because they can?? What is the payoff, besides bragging rights? When we KNOW that some of the best, hardest use optics are in the $2K range, what is being given for DOUBLE, even Triple the price?
It's diminishing returns for sure after that ~$2000 price point. But if you have the cash, go for it...but personally I would get a ZCO.
There are lots and lots of people out there that have to keep up with the Jones, plain and simple. Or try to surpass the Jones.
Not into spending BIG $$$$ for a scope. First thought, what you gunna do when the high $$$ scope that costs more than then rig it's mounted on, hits the ground as it rolls off the bench or smacks a tree while you're getting into position??
Bottom line, it's YOUR $$$ so do what you will with it. You're only going around one time, unless you're Shirley MacLaine, so enjoy it.
AND, you can't take it with you unless you can change it into Travelers Checks.
Oz never gave nothing to the Tin Man, that he didn't already have.
Yeah, pretty much my thinking over the years. And sure... I have nothing against people who DO spend the incredible money on some optics. I don’t berate, or ridicule them. I congratulate & tell them what an awesome scope! As I said, I’d LOVE to be behind a Valdada Recon Tactical 4-28x50. (Yessir! I said “50”! That wasn’t typo. I prefer 50mm objectives.) But it is FAR outside my budget Honestly though, I couldn’t bring myself to drop that much coin on an optic, even if I had the cash. There are too many other things I would want to spend that extra money on. But that’s just me. And yes, I understand competition. I’m not a competitor. Never have been in rifle. Only pistol- USPSA shooting. But not even that any longer. Even so, I do understand the draw to buying THE BEST “Tool” for competition. And how one will spend even above their budget for those superior tools. Again though... $5K?!?+++!!?? Just seems absurdly exorbitant to me! So far above diminishing returns it’s just wasteful to me. “TO ME” being the operative words there gentlemen, so take note.Originally Posted by celltech
Honestly though, my shooting now(seldom, and purely for my enjoyment), just doesn’t warrant even a $1,500 optic. I’ve set my limit, for my shooting at $1,000.
I really like the high end Night Force and Leupolds.
Semper Fi
Sgt USMC 66-72
I agree both great options! But are you referring to the say, the exceptional $2100 Mark 5 line? Or the Mark 8 line, some upwards of $4500+. And same for Nightforce.
The money's just not worth what it once was. I know guys who drive around in $80K pickup trucks. LOL.
I have a lot of Weavers and B&L/Bushnell scopes...already paid for.
Night Force ATACR 5-25 x 56 ffp, Beast FFP, and NX8 4-32 x 50 FFP are my latest additions. Got a bunch of Leupolds mostly MK-4 8.5 - 25 and some VX III LRT 8.5 - 25. I have decided any future scopes will be Night Force. Love the repeatability of recorded dope.
Semper Fi
Sgt USMC 66-72
Unless you've actually used a Tangent Theta or a Zero Compromise optic, then you don't know what you're missing. Those scopes are the best of the best! If I could afford either brand, I'd have 2-3 of them. But, I'm maxed out in the $3k range when it comes to optics and have only purchased one of those scopes brand new.
Now, If you want to see some crazy priced scopes, look at Hensoldt. They have several model's that MSRP is north of $10k. This one is on sale, and is still close to $8k.
https://www.eurooptic.com/hensoldt-z...iflescope.aspx
For general shooting, most people couldn't tell the difference between a $1500 scope and one that cost 2-3x as much. To someone that spends a lot of time behind one, you can see a world of difference between them.
So it’s like being a Wine Connoisseur? Gay!
I wouldn't know, I don't drink wine!
For sure on the world of difference with quality scopes. Just have to draw a limit somewhere at my age.
Semper Fi
Sgt USMC 66-72
Hey, if you can afford it and you want it . . . go for it. You can't take it with you and nice things are . . . nice. I could never figure out why anyone would buy a Corvette. But people do. People who can keep the McClaren company in business selling $300,000 cars with no trunks for a tackle box and waders. Go figure.
I figure the furthest extreme I'll ever shoot at a medium to large animal is 300 yards. I've probably taken 25 deer with open iron sights. I don't recall even ever shooting at a woodchuck further back when I varmint hunted (with a 6X fixed Leupold). I got myself a Leupold VX-5HD 3-15x44mm for my .260 Rem. It's 3X what I ever paid before for a scope. One reason I splurged is NY just allowed 1/2 hour "big game" shooting before sunrise and 1/2 hr after sunset for the first time ever - and my tired ol' eyes like that FireDot. And that 15X will make load development on paper better . . . I hope. I'm retiring soon and this was a luxury while I was still bringing in a salary.
I guess if I could afford to go for cape buffalo or lion and was using a $9K Kreighoff Hubertus rifle then a $3K Swarovski Z8i scope would be in order. Extreme reliability or ruggedness. Makes sense that the scope and mounts should cost around what you put into the rest of the rifle. You're not going to shoot any better than you can see. But I walk out the back door to where I hunt in mostly wooded hills and that doesn't require extreme durability or ruggedness. Maybe rain & snow; definately cold. Flat shooting is nice not because of distance but because of needing to thread a bullet through the "window" of tree branches and under canopy cover. And light gathering lens quality can make a big difference in the "golden 30 minutes" before sunset.
God Bless the guys that have 1,500 yard shot opportunities. That's not for me and not the way I hunt. Heck, I still-hunt with sightless recurve bows from the 1960's and wood arrows I make myself. Successfully. Makes a firearm seem a LOT easier to hunt with and get off a shot when the opportunity arises.
"They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance." Last words of Gen. Sedgwik
There’s a ton of money running around out there right now. A lot of it is that my buddy got the $3500 March so I need the $4500 Tangent Theta. Most of them stay in the closet. I guess since there’s no ammo to buy a guy has to spend it on something.
I don’t pay that much for cars.
Hell, I drew a limit at my age. And I’m just 43. I decided several years ago, around $1K is my Glass limit. I’m disabled, I can no longer drive..so I don’t get out shooting much anymore. But I still enjoy it thoroughly when I do. I don’t compete, and I don’t shoot ELR. My shooting distance is between 100-1000yds. Much less at 1000yds, even with my limited shooting, than some shorter distances. The $1K limit I drew is capable today of some really good options. The Athlon ELR, Sightron SIII, Meopta Optika6, Arken ER5, just to name a few I’ve been looking at. In the end I chose the US Optics TS-20. And I’m confident it will serve me well, given my criteria. (Limited capacity, LOL)
It’s simply illogical for me to drop more money given the shooting I do. Shooting at 300, 500, even my maximum range of 1000yds, will even the MOST expensive Glass somehow make my shooting better? I seriously doubt it. This is a long way AWAY from ELR. There is far more I can put that extra money towards.
There's always going to be the "Keeping up with the Jones" mentality with everything. I'm not rich by any means, but I have been debt free for quite a while, so I can afford to buy some nice optics as well as build some nice custom guns.
I could go out and buy a ZCO or TT brand scope easily, but they really wouldn't make the shooting I do any better than the S&B, IOR, Steiner, Athlon, or Delta scopes that I have now.
If I made a living with a rifle, I'd want the best gear I could get. I don't, I'm a life long recreational shooter that competes every once in a while for fun.
But, I've shot long range for many years, and it didn't take long to figure out that cheap stuff doesn't work out very well. You gotta pay to play the game!
The only top tier scope's that I ever paid retail for is my IOR Recon and Revic PMR428. I think the IOR was $3200 with tax, and the Revic was $2800. I used the Revic a couple years and decided it wasn't what I wanted, so I sold it and bought a used S&B PMII for close to what I sold the Revic for. I bought another used S&B - just like the other for less money when I built my last rifle. There are some great deals on used top end scopes, you just have to look for them and not hesitate to buy them when you see them.
When do you really need optics that cost 3500? When you need everything to work, dialing ranges and windage, parralax correct and in focus at all ranges, point of impact exact in all powers. Less than .1% of shooters "NEED" that. I am very pleased with but do not need the level of quality they provide; Kahles, Nighforce, Athlon(Cronus). I was always big on Sightron Big Sky hunting scopes. Really good glass. Then I picked up a 6-24 SIII. Much less eye fatigue durring longer shooting sessions than my Bushnells. The NXS was a huge improvement over that. The Athlon's where picked up for under 1500 in the early BTR days. Nocked my socks off. No eye fatigue and flawless function in all aspects believe it or not. The the Kahles. Were does it stop? I no longer shoot due to health but if I did I would look at what kind and how often I shoot. Then I would decide my compromises. I can say that one of the clearest easy on the eyes scopes I ever looked through was a lower power Swaro. You don't need as much power with glass like that.
Less expensive higher power scopes normaly have issues with cromatic abberation, focus to the edge, difficulty adjusting parralax precisely, eye box and exit pupil. All those things add up to eye fatigue. In the end I will advise others to look for the price level of scope that eliminates as much of those issues without going overboard. Seems like for a tactical type scope that is somewhere between 1400 and 1900.
The Dunning-Kruger effect is alive and well.
I own a few expensive scopes mostly from IOR. I compete with the IOR 6-24x56 Tactical scope in PRS and for my 300 Norma Magnum has the Crusader scope from IOR. Here's why I invest in high quality optics.
The biggest reason why I want top tier glass I suppose is the cost to compete. Range fee is ~$100. Ammo and/or reloading components are selling for crackhead prices right now. So for a one day match, reloading components for my 260 is $122.40. While I would love to take my wife's corrolla to the match, if there's any inclement weather, I'll have to my Ram that reaches out to OPEC to let em know I'm driving; $80 to drive to the match. Dinner and/or snacks during the match: $50. And this is for a match that is within driving distance and I don't need a hotel.
So to add that up: $350 for a 1 day match. Within driving distance. If I'm spending $350, I cannot afford equipment like my scope to go down. The best warranty isn't one that helps the post office stay afloat Vortex, it's the scope that NEVER has to come off your rifle.
It's the scope that never loses zero, it has perfect glass, it tracks perfectly, the clicks are clearly defined. The only reason I want to upgrade to another Crusader for my PRS rig is so that my 22 trainer has the same reticle that I'm used to. Right now, it has an Arken scope on it.
They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
Are you convincing us or your wife?
Yeah, I get where you’re coming from. But your $3K range IOR is one thing. (As I said, the IOR would be NUMBER 1 choice, given a choice of any.) But I was referring to the LUDICROUS $5K range Tangent Theta. Which, from outward appearance doesn’t even look as nice as the Valdadas. Just saying. The Tangents might be more awesome than the home shopping network for old ladies, but to me, it is sinfully FUGLY! It’s a monstrosity! Almost 17” long! WTF!? It weights a STAGGERING 40.56oz!! The Turrets have a retarded design as finger grooves, and they Free spin in locked position. WHY? Seriously, what kind of retard designed these things? NO THANK YOU! They just don’t look impressive to me. WAY too long... WAY too heavy.. Has a HUGE Objective Bell and very little room for front ring attachment. FUGLY! But whatever. These aren’t things designed into $2.5K or $3K optics. Hell, my $1K optic doesn’t even have any of this design nonsense!
Oh, not only all that...but for $5K+, they couldn’t even design their own reticle! They just STOLE reticles from a bunch of other makers. The US Optics I’m getting, has the GENIIXR reticle. And wha-da-ya know? This has it as well. Hmm, $5K and they are using OTHERS design features? Dishonest, RIP OFF, much?
Geez Dave, Get off your cheap azz scope rant. I'm sure Tangent Theta gives a damn if you don't like their prices or features. If you wouldn't ever buy one, then what the hell does it matter?
If you've never looked thru one, then you don't have a clue as to what you're talking about.
I've got some pretty decent optic's on several rifle's, but they aren't even close to Tangent Theta class optics.
As far as the weight goes, it isn't too bad. My Recon weighs 39+ ounces, PMII's are right at 40 ounces. You wanna talk about a boat anchor, just look and see what a Razor HD weighs, their knocking on 4 pounds, yet a crap load of guy's buy them.
Where in that was I “going on” about scopes that are beneath you? Yeah, I just don’t buy it.
I really like spreading my belly on the ground and getting bullets to go at least close to where I want them. Target is a couple years old but a representation of what I enjoy. This is a 50' target shot at 100yds.
Semper Fi
Sgt USMC 66-72
Haha no one really. The law of diminishing returns really comes into effect here. Say you buy a Crusader from IOR: Is the glass going to be THAT much better to getting a Tangent Theta? I'll be sticking with IOR because I like their reticles. I wish they made more of their tactical line of scopes in MOA, but that's just me. Same could be said for the Nightforce ATACR: would going to a khales be that much better if you already love the features of the nightforce? If you love Tangent Theta, rock on with it. I compete with a Mausingfield, a $1600 receiver.Are you convincing us or your wife?
They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
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