?? Boyds pro varm. - no pillar/bedding (thoughts) ??

[ice tea]

Thinking about a Boyds PV. Anyone here mounted/used theres for a while, before they did any work to it (pillared/Bedded etc.) ? If so, did any the wood get deformed, or anything compromised in a neg. way by mounting/ use, that effected your extra work put into it. In other words, any think of any drawbacks in using it raw , before doing the support work. Any thoughts would be appreciated.
This is for a 12FV, correct me if wrong, selections for this would be: 12 bolt release, center feed, blind mag, bull barrel. Thanks

[charlie b]

I used mine 'raw' for about 1000 rounds. Keep in mind this is a .223 Axis so it isn't stressing the stock at all. I later bedded it with JB Weld. Did not see a difference in accuracy before and after. But, it was shooting 0.5MOA raw, and that is about as good as I can shoot. So, if it 'improved' I'll never know since I am the limiting factor.

PS if you have plastic bottom hardware then I'd suggest upgrading to metal trigger guard and such. The plastic did not give repeatable torque values for me.

[CFJunkie]

I know that some people just prefer wood stocks, but all I am interested in is accuracy so a synthetic stock doesn't bother me, as long as they have an aluminum stabilizer in the stock.

I chose an Oryx chassis for both of my 12 FVs, one in .223 and one in 6.5mm CM.
I decided on the Oryx because the synthetic factory stock on the 12 FV 6.5mm CM twisted on every shot (no aluminum stabilizer like in the Accu-Stocks).
I liked the Oryx so much that I bought another one for the .223.

The Orxy also is set up for AICS detachable mags, so the hidden magazine issues disappear.
The .223 hidden mag on the 12 FV is good, but the 1/2 inch spacer in the bolt made it difficult for me to load bullets that are loaded to be close to the lands. Geezers like me have fingers that aren't as nimble as you younger shooters. That was another reason I went with the Oryx for the .223 even though its factory stock didn't flex.
I found a slight improvement in accuracy with both rifles.
I actually saw more improvement with the .223 12 FV in the Oryx stock than with the 6.5mm CM, but both showed accuracy improvement.
I can't explain why the .223 showed more improvement, but, for me, the Oryx just allows me to set up more consistently with both rifles.

[Dave Hoback]

Many find wood stocks very beautiful, but they offer no performance gain over a synthetic stock or Aluminum Chassis. Raw wood will always present the opportunity for creep. I am not one who believes in “tuning” Action screws. I believe they should be tight enough to not allow creep, yet not so tight as to introduce fatiguing torque. The problem with wood, it can & WILL creep. As Charlie pointed out, not too much a concern with lighter cartridges. But will continue getting worse with the more powerful the caliber/cartridge. Not to mention the warping/bending/twisting game that moister, heat & humidity can play on wood. Even pillared & bedded, wood offers no performance enhancement over its synthetic/metallic brethren.

I know many love their wood stocks & knife handles, as they do leather sheaths & holsters. But for over two decades I have been a fan of synthetics & billet aluminum for the proven performance increase. Although, I’m even more of a fan of going with your choice. Look at the shooting you will be doing, and get what makes you happy. The point of all this is enjoyment after all.

[ice tea]

CHARLIE, I'm not familar w/ way axis mounts, or if you meant it was low stress because its only a .223. I'm intending to put this on a .223 also, byt the nxt one will be 308. I've had these different FV's for two yrs, and had to wait for swfa scopes etc., and just been busy, and want to use/enjoy them for a while, before putting to much time/effort in them. So what your saying sounds like i can mount it and shoot. The metal guards are steel. thanks

CF JUNKIE I remeber you well, and have read your detailed findings/results. Two yrs ago, I was less than a day away from ordering a $1200 savage, and what you were saying, changed my mind in to getting three 12FV's instead, so your the reason I'm faced w/ this issue LOL, :) . Nathan also shares your thoughts. I dont think I can enjoy a chasis though. I held one similar to the oryx in a store, and it just dont feel right. I also dont like the feel or a AR. I dont think anyone can argue the reasons you gave for accuracy/practicality.

DAVE I understand what your saying, and agree. It took me yrs to accept plastic, instead of wood. Part reason, I accepted plastic, was the laminated wood these days , isnt what i think as wood. So, I been through 4 choate tacticals this summer. Everyone of them had a problem, and have sent them back. I dont want to see a fifth one, and I dont think Choate or its distributors want to see me either. I'm not talking cosmetic problems either. What I will say, is the people at Choate are good people, as there distrbutors, and covered shipping costs, and didnt try to deny the problems.. So I think the next step in plastic that has similar form, would be the HS Precision, and then we need a bottom metal/mag, so $700 is alot to add to the once cheap priced 12fv. So I'm still open for other reccomendations/sugggestions of a similar shaped plastic stock, but a Boyds wood for under 200 dollars, it sounds up my alley. Ii live in a relatively dry climate, Also, I think it will be a good learning experiance for me to screw around w/ bedding/pillars etc. Maybe this winter I can find the spare time for that. Thanks for the replies.

[charlie b]

Yes, not much stress cause it is a .223. Also, the Axis has (until recently) a separate piece of steel that works as a recoil lug, not permanently attached to the stock or action. Kind of like a keyway on an motor shaft. I understand the newer Axis has the lug fixed in the stock. Neither of which, to me, is a great solution. One reason I won't buy another Axis.

And, yes, with the 110 action I'd just install and shoot. Then decide if you want to install pillars and/or bed the action. For the .308 I'd probably bed at least the recoil lug area.

FWIW, there have been some of the Boyd's laminate stocks delaminate with use. Pillars and/or bedding will probably reduce the likelyhood of that happening.

[ice tea]

Bunch of good info there, cuz I was thinking of getting an axis in long action. Also, you mentioning laminate damge, I take it then the inside of the stock is laminated. I didnt know that, and thought Ii could sand the inner walls to fit barrel channel etc. If I do sanding, that might open things up more to moisture etc., like Dave was cautioning me about.I think there might be some errors on Boyds website about inner Barrel wall demnsions and descriptions , that sound conflicting. I'm going to try talking to them about it. Thanks

Yes, not much stress cause it is a .223. Also, the Axis has (until recently) a separate piece of steel that works as a recoil lug, not permanently attached to the stock or action. Kind of like a keyway on an motor shaft. I understand the newer Axis has the lug fixed in the stock. Neither of which, to me, is a great solution. One reason I won't buy another Axis.

And, yes, with the 110 action I'd just install and shoot. Then decide if you want to install pillars and/or bed the action. For the .308 I'd probably bed at least the recoil lug area.

FWIW, there have been some of the Boyd's laminate stocks delaminate with use. Pillars and/or bedding will probably reduce the likelyhood of that happening.

[KMW1954]

I have been working with an older Model 10 Top Bolt Release, Blind Mag, Stagger Feed 223 and basically been using it only for paper punchin out to 300yds.
I wanted a more bench style grip for this and first came across a Boyds Thumbhole on their Rapid Fire page so I thought I would try it. Found I didn't like it, uncomfortable. Though after it arrived I mounted it up as-is to test fire it and it performed very well with no modifications. But again I didn't like it so I took it off.

I then soon found on Rapid Fire a Boyds Spike Camp. Right away it felt better but when I shot it it was all over the place. My groups went from 1.75" @ 200yds to over 10" just from changing the stock. I plan on keeping this one so I am now working on bedding it.

Before starting mods on this stock I asked a lot of questions on many different forums and of course got many different answers and opinions. Two I really trust from over at Shooters Forum informed me that with laminate stocks with short action light caliber rounds they do not bother with Pillars and after looking at Boyds site they only bed Front Pillars on Savage stocks. So I have forgone the pillars in this stock.

Maybe some day I too can afford a chassis stock. But for now I am a long way from needing one.

[Dave Hoback]

Yeah, the Boyd's stocks are laminated. Only way they can do what they for the price. But hardwood laminate is actually stronger, less prone to the environment than the solid counterparts. Sanding for the barrel inlet won't make it more prone. It's just the nature of wood in general. Delaminating can happen over time with the stress of use, again...over time. And yes, bedding makes it less prone. But this is not something happening on every stock.

[ice tea]

KMW , thank you for sharing that about the thumbhole, as, Iv'e seen Boyds has quite a few different stocks, and might want to mix it up a lil, w/ diffreent models/shapes if I like the pro varmint. Please update/post us on the outcome/accuracy, when you get that spike cam finished .

DAVE , thanks again. I did call Boyds, and turned out the narrow barrel channel "B" dimension that had listed, was wrong. SO, It no longer sounds like I'll have to sand/widen the barrel channel. Also thanks for the laminate comment about being stronger than its counterparts (I didnt know).

[mnbogboy2]

One of the biggest complaints about bounds laminate stocks is they tend to split between the rear action screw and the magwell. Bounds have recently offered a pillar bedded option which makes sense and is a reactionary solution to the complaints.
I personally have pillaged and bedded two of their stocks for the cracking issue.
I would pay extra for the pillars if head going to buy another.
Both of my stocks turned out to be good shooting rifles.
They are thumbhole stocks. They are comfortable to shoot but the thumbhole makes operation of the Savage tang safety awkward. In a hunting situation the right hand/thumb must be removed completely from the thumbhole in order to operate the safety. Unnecessary movement could possibly ruin a what could be sucessful hunt.
My $.02

[ice tea]

MNBOGBOY , I saw a couple youtube vids on pillar/bedding, and they all showed/noted the thin wall your talking about. It makes me shy about tourqueing the screws. From what I seen/remember, the largest dia they could get away w/ using was a 3/8 OD tube, so that gives just shy of a 1/16 wall. That dont sound like much. I saw where Boyds offered a front pillar for 60 bucks I think, but if there was a rear, I missed it. Any advice/tricks or what you used to do the job, sure would be welcome. The one I ordered will be blind mag, so it seems to me, there would be room for Boyds to have left some extra meat in that area. If I'm happy w/ the stock, I may order another right away for a 308, which I might go dbm. Thank you for that comment about the safety on the thumbhole, as, I hadn't thought of that. Sometimes the obvious flys right over my head. Thanks for the info

[KMW1954]

ice tea, the first bedding job didn't exactly turn out as I had hoped so I ground it all out and had a do-over. This one turned out better and hope to shoot it this week. Will follow up afterwards.

[mnbogboy2]

There are several threads in this forum where members talked about their methods.
Personally on wood stocks I drill and tap the wood to accept lamp posts which are 1/8 pipe thread.
The tap I use is 1/8npt. I prefit the lamp post pillars for correct height top and bottom I cut a small slot in the top end so awidescrewdriver can be used to turn it in or out. A liberal coating of 2 part epoxy on the threads will hold the pillar securely after it cures. The wall of these lamp posts is thin at the minor diameter of the threads and does not seem to affect how much torque youputonit.
I have run as much as 55 inch pounds against thesehomemadepillars.
Remembertocutthe notch in therearpillat before it is epovxiedin
The notch is for triggersear clearance.
If you have a factory tupperware stock you can get dimensions for The notch from the factorypillars.
There isastraighttap available so tapping through the stock at the frontpillar will be easier. I modified my not tap so theshank others wouldntinterferewhile tapping. I had to grind down the diameter.
The old thread I mentioned has a link in it for The correct tap to use.
The lamp posts are available at most hardware stores.
Overdid the same method on factory Savage wood stocks several times,
Also on both of the Boyd thumbholestocks I have and Also onyremington 700 bel
If the pillars fit from the reciever to the trigger gaurd and recieerto frontsrewwreess
Itmakeseddigthewholeactioeasierafterthepillarsares ecure.
A search on here for pillar beddingshould getting those old posts.

[ice tea]

thank you KMW 1954.

MNBOGBOY2 - Thank you for the detailed explanation, and, I'm sorry for delay on responding. I did read it about a week ago, and since, been thinking on this threading/lamptube method while I drive, and wake up in middle of night. That is when I do some of my planning thinking on stuff. I do have a couple immediate concerns/questions about it, but I think it'll be better I research some of these other articles, like u suggested before I start yakin. My stock, is currently in transit, so I should be back soon, thanks

[KMW1954]

ice tea, the first bedding job didn't exactly turn out as I had hoped so I ground it all out and had a do-over. This one turned out better and hope to shoot it this week. Will follow up afterwards.

This second attempt turned out much nicer, it actually shoots again and shoots groups like before. Again I Did Not add pillars to this stock.

[charlie b]

....The tap I use is 1/8npt. I prefit the lamp post pillars for correct height top and bottom I cut a small slot in the top end so awidescrewdriver can be used to turn it in or out....

Thanks for the idea of lamp posts. I am going to use them on my next one.

One trick to installing all thread type material is to use jam nuts when possible instead of slotting. I have even cut down the OD of a nut to fit into a recess a little bit (still have to get a wrench on it). I think pillars might be a perfect type of application for this.

[ice tea]

KMW1954 - thank you for the update.

The stock arrived. What I'm stumped about is why, is the right rear receiver support mostly milled out. Front u shaped block seems normal. Rear u shaped block, looks to be complete as it can be on the left side . But the right side of u support (near bolt handle), is 85% milled out. It's surface area for receiver support/contact, is only a 1/5 or less of the area on the left side. Suddenly all this bedding, and everyones preferences on torques, dont make sense to me w/ this type of design. Seems, this would cause uneven support from recoil/force and screw torque. Looking at factory 12fv tupperware stock, and the gun, I dont see any clues of why Boyds would do this, or what would interfere in the area. Choates rear right v block was not this way. I would think the idea would be to keep each side close to equal on support/contact surface area, not 5 times more on one side than other. It can be seen at 6:00 on this below video. Its hard to see, because the laminate grain camoflauges it, but, the darker garin is of height, and the lighter colored grain is lower (makes no contact w/ receiver). The back left support, is the width of the kids thumb. The opposite/right side is a fr4action of the kids thumb, for support, as u can see, most it is milled out. Mine may even be a lil worse. Any explanations on this, or , how this is right ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXRBG1HCutI

[JW]

The right side is made that way for the top bolt release models. If your rifle is a bottom bolt release there will be void there.
The purpose for bedding is to hopefully get a stress free contact on the action that will keep the action where it is supposed to be.
The recoil lug area is where the "business" end of holding the action in place is.
The tang or back of the action is bedded to keep everything in line and stress free while torqueing the action screws.
You know you have a good bedding job when torqueing the action screws--they tighten without feeling the movement of the action moving in the stock. another way of explaining is the screws come to an abrupt stop (tight).
I hope this helps
Jack

[hamiltonkiler]

It’s to easy not to bed. All you need is JB weld and a drill with a bit set.
Painters tape..
I’ve never see a need to do a full bed job. The front of the action and recoil lug will do the trick.
Cheers


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Dave Hoback]

I’ve known some to do that...just the front. But the fact remains doing BOTH from/rear Action screws takes away all doubt. It’s important that NO gap is present between receiver bed & Action. I even did a skim bedding on my MDT Chassis.

To the OP, I hear what you are saying about “playing” with action screw torque. I’ve already touched on this; we are battling the harmonics BECAUSE of creep, not in spite of it. As long as the mating between Action & Stock is solid & void of creep, it would not matter if you strapped a TUNING FORK to the Action, LOL!

[ice tea]

JW - thank you for the explanation. Looking at the area my top bolt release lever needs for clearance vs the amount Boyds milled out of my right rear support pad, the amount material removed, is excessive. Looking at google pics of bottom bolt release, it appears the stocks void or button for release, is centered at front of trigger guard. That makes me wonder, if, maybe, the stocks made for bottom bolt release, might have both complete rear support pads, and the void/hole, would be more centered in stock? I'm not trying to argue w/ you that what your saying about rear supports role level in this, but I'm now wondering if I'd rather have a unneccessary hole in middle if it dont cause other issues, rather than the right rear support mostly missing?

HAMILTON - i agree from what I gather from videos, and whats being said. i love JB Weld, I've used it for multiple diff things over the yrs. the stuff is great. What my plan was, mount/shoot this one as is, for the 223. If I liked it, immediatly order another for the 308, and pillar and bed newset one from the get go. And, if successful happy, with the 308 pillar/bed, then I could come back, and do the .223/current stock I just received.

DAVE - thanks, I want no gap b/t reeiver bed and action w/o creep also. I wish I could post the pics of how little suport area I'm dealing w/ on back right. Last time I tried hard to post pics, I couldn't make them appear/upload. I might try again tommorrow.

[Dave Hoback]

Did you see my comments on using ImgBB to host pictures? It's really easy man. You don't need to join or even send them your email! Are you using a PC or your smart phone? I'm always online on my IPhone. But either way, just go here download your pics from the memory on your pc or phone drive. https://imgbb.com/ Then click the picture and on the left side under the picture will be a drop down arrow with the word "About" in front of the arrows. Click that. There will be several links. You want to copy the "BBCode" link. And paste it here. It's super easy! And doesn't cost the site wasted memory as it's "3rd party hosted".

[ice tea]

https://ibb.co/QdDXtM2
https://ibb.co/0jXh63q
https://ibb.co/PMPdGwT
https://ibb.co/tXDvNZt

Dave, thank you, I'm not too computer literate, and I just have a cheap laptop. I decided to try to fit/mount the thing. The rear safety tang, is making contact w/o any screw torque to speak of, so I take it, sanding the stock is the thing to do there? Bolt handle wont quite drop/lock, cuz some wood removal will be needed in front of handle, as the stocks notch is too far back. There is some sort of washer in front action screw hole, which i think is a hard plastic, its got a funny concave contour to it, not sure if thats right for a cap screw to seat, or if plastic is the thing to use there ? My savage "L" shaped clip thats slotted for rear action screw, needs to be forced in to hold mag assembly down, as box is a tight fit lengthwise. I will also need to probably use a dremel w/ a barrel shaped abrasive, to widen trigger guard valley. So, I'll do all that as spoke, unless someone has cautions/suggests diff/better ideas. Everything else looks to fit well. Thanks again for the pic posting help, as, I think this will be helpful even more to me, when I get to pillaring/bedding

[Dave Hoback]

Well, we need to see the Action in the stock to really understand it.

I'm wondering though, what is your reservation with it? Is it simply Aesthetics? Or are you concerned in some way?