Factory loaded .308 match ammo for long range

[South Prairie jim]

I wasn't able to get any M118LR, but the general consensus is that it's no longer very good. M118LR has changed multiple times over the years, and some batches were not very good at all.

The Lapua 175gr Scenar-L factory loads I tested did very well at 100, 600, and 1000 yards - considering my set-up and skill level. The factory Lapua rounds do seem to be very high quality. I realize custom hand-loads could do better, especially at 1000 yards, but I don't have a real 1000 yard set-up - just a basic 24" heavy barrel, a slightly better stock, and a fixed 12x scope.

I enjoyed the long range class, and shooting out to 1000 yards, but I realize it would take the proper equipment and more knowledge/training/testing to really make it worthwhile.

600 yards is a big enough challenge right now.

I bet that class was a lot of fun and very educational, I wish I still had a 600 range nearby to shoot competition but unfortunately a 500 tuner range is my closest to shoot and tune for my Missoula 1 k season. Of course we can go out on public land where we have steel set but it difficult to see splashes sometimes.

[South Prairie jim]

Hey Jim, This one has had a bit of an “attitude” problem since joining here. He also joined at least 1 or 2 other gun forums within the last several months, with the same winning personality. He hadn’t been here 40 posts & received a little “Time Out” for a week. He’s toned it down some, but clearly still has some anger issues you might say. Best not to answer his taunts.

oh yeah’ this cat is a national treasure.

[Dave Hoback]

Shame. He does at times sound like he knows a fair bit. But it’s usually laced with VENOM. Just sounds like an Axe to grind.

[pdshooter2]

the best i can tell is that if i have an opinion or facts/data that are different from yours i am not allowed to post them.
naw that aint gonna work.

oh yeah’ this cat is a national treasure.

[pdshooter2]

even after i said you had no clue, you insist i answer your (poor) question.
still no clue.
m118lr is MIL SPEC AMMO, it is not MATCH AMMO, IT IS NOT LOADED TO A SPECIFIC RIFLE TO BE SHOT IN A MATCH.
the original m118lr bolt gun ammo was without a doubt the best 7.62X51 AMMO ever built as an as issue ammo.

but even then it is NOT MATCH AMMO.

All I can tell you is my loads were tuned to my rifle whereas the m118lr did not perform as well.
That really should not be a surprise at all, if the M118lr load is that great why don’t the FTR guys use them?

[Robinhood]

From the outside looking in, it may not be as much that you are the random anonymous victim, it may be your combatant delivery. You insults like this one " you don't have a clue" may create a hostile condition.

Maybe come across as someone trying to help not someone who needs validation that they are the supreme being of this and other forums. Lastly if you disagree with someone you might use a delivery like "wow, my experience has been completely different" Rather than, "Jane, you ignorant slut".

I could be wrong though.

I never saw South Prairie Jim insult you or even start an argument. He simply disagreed with you in what i believe to be an acceptable way on-line.
My opinion on the 118 ammo is that it is for guys who either do not want to spend the time reloading or can't reload for some reason.

[South Prairie jim]

Nothing beyond the obvious Mike ? What a shame. Lol

added: I think it’s widely accepted that Mil spec ammunition is designed for torso sized targets, so nothing earth shattering or worthy of guessing games and insults.

[pdshooter2]

Nothing beyond the obvious Mike ? What a shame. Lol

added: I think it’s widely accepted that Mil spec ammunition is designed for torso sized targets, so nothing earth shattering or worthy of guessing games and insults.

you are the one that proposed this
'if the M118lr load is that great why don’t the FTR guys use them?'

you seem conflicted

[Dave Hoback]

From the outside looking in in may not be as much that you are the random anonymous victim, it may be your combatant delivery. You insults like this one " you don't have a clue" may create a hostil condition.

Maybe come across as someone trying to help not someone who needs validation that they are the supreme being of this and other forums. Lastly if you disagree with someone you might use a delivery like "wow, my experience has been completely different" Rather than, "Jane, you ignorant slut".

I could be wrong though.

I never saw South Prairie Jim insult you or even start an argument. He simply disagreed with you in what i believe to be an acceptable way on-line.
My opinion on the 118 ammo is that it is for guys who either do not want to spend the time reloading or can't reload for some reason.

EXACTAMUNDO! That is unquestionably & beyond a shadow of a doubt, what I am getting from the replies. It doesn’t seem geared towards “helping”, and WAY to much “Look at Me!”. And yes, the supreme knowledge bit is off putting, and even laughable when the attitude is towards extremely knowledgeable. All without what I would call derogatory statements in provocation.

[Dave Hoback]

Duplicate

[charlie b]

I wasn't able to get any M118LR, but the general consensus is that it's no longer very good. M118LR has changed multiple times over the years, and some batches were not very good at all.

The Lapua 175gr Scenar-L factory loads I tested did very well at 100, 600, and 1000 yards - considering my set-up and skill level. The factory Lapua rounds do seem to be very high quality. I realize custom hand-loads could do better, especially at 1000 yards, but I don't have a real 1000 yard set-up - just a basic 24" heavy barrel, a slightly better stock, and a fixed 12x scope.

I enjoyed the long range class, and shooting out to 1000 yards, but I realize it would take the proper equipment and more knowledge/training/testing to really make it worthwhile.

600 yards is a big enough challenge right now.

Glad it worked out, and that you could get the Lapua factory loads.

FWIW, the local Sportman's has a bunch of Winchester white box 7.62x51 147gn that is labeled 'target' and 'match'. Never seen that before. I am tempted to get some and try it just for grins.

Sent from my SM-P580 using Tapatalk

[Tempest]

I shoot 1,000 yard FTR matches and we use what everyone else pretty much does, a 200-20X Berger in a Lapua Palma case.

A number of years ago a couple guys from the NG shot the match with us. They were paired next to us. They used M118 and both did very poor. The amount of vertical they had was considerable, certainly do to MV variation. One commented it was "match" ammo. I said maybe better than standard 7.62x51 for a couple hundred yards but not for 1,000 yards compared to what everyone else was shooting.

They both were probably very good shooters but I've never seen anyone win a match with box ammo. They would have done much better with Federal Gold Medal Match or Black Hills for that matter.

Just my $.02.

[pdshooter2]

i agree. the case to case variation is terrible.
was it m118, m118 special ball, or m118lr ?? if lr what year.
a bunch of different loads with 118 in the name.
the original load was very good, and i doubt they were shooting that load.
but very good in mil terms is somewhere around 1.1 moa or so

I shoot 1,000 yard FTR matches and we use what everyone else pretty much does, a 200-20X Berger in a Lapua Palma case.

A number of years ago a couple guys from the NG shot the match with us. They were paired next to us. They used M118 and both did very poor. The amount of vertical they had was considerable, certainly do to MV variation. One commented it was "match" ammo. I said maybe better than standard 7.62x51 for a couple hundred yards but not for 1,000 yards compared to what everyone else was shooting.

They both were probably very good shooters but I've never seen anyone win a match with box ammo. They would have done much better with Federal Gold Medal Match or Black Hills for that matter.

Just my $.02.

[jkv45]

Don't recall if I posted this here before, but some info on changes to M118 over the years -

https://www.snipercentral.com/history-m118-ammunition/

It ranged from pretty good to pretty bad over the years.

[pdshooter2]

Don't recall if I posted this here before, but some info on changes to M118 over the years -

https://www.snipercentral.com/history-m118-ammunition/

It ranged from pretty good to pretty bad over the years.

and like a lot of stories it has some flaws in its facts.

[Robinhood]

and like a lot of stories it has some flaws in its facts.

I'm sure we can count on you to set the story straight. Would you mind giving us the accurate story of the 118 match Load.

[jkv45]

and like a lot of stories it has some flaws in its facts.

Just like almost everything on the Internet...

[pdshooter2]

I'm sure we can count on you to set the story straight. Would you mind giving us the accurate story of the 118 match Load.

the most common issue is that the m118lr was developed for bolt guns..it was a top end load the was well past the m852 168 load of 2550 fps.
when the load was used in ar10's( yep they had so many armalite's you could not buy a mag in the usa for a while) and sr25's. there were no issues. when they reactivated m14's they started having issues in the summer heat. bent op rods. so instead of using the ammo where it was intended, they watered it down. first time. then they went over seas and played in the desert and again the m14 was the problem child...more bent op rods. again instead of using where intended, it was watered down again. each time it was watered down it lost some value, less velocity/less accuracy. in the end the politician approach was lets go make a nice generic load that works ok everywhere, rather than an excellent BOLT RIFLE sniper load. so now we have 175 that does a mere 2570 or so.....barely faster tan the 168 load.
while hard to get early data, shooters said it was close to 2700 fps with the 175. a hot load for sure.

[Tempest]

I mention this just for comparison sake not debate:

Looking at the above posted velocity for a 175 SMK and consider that for 1,000 yard competition. Most of us in FTR are shooting a 200g (with G1 .640 BC) around 2650-2,700 MV. We typically see 1,500 FPS at 1,000 yard target. A lot less elevation, time in the air and windage than a 175.

That was a good bullet for the time but ballistic technology has come a long way since then. To end on a positive note for the 175. They shoot absolutely fantastic at 600 yards and IMO will score just as well as a 200g with a good shooter in FTR .308 class.

[charlie b]

the most common issue is that the m118lr was developed for bolt guns..it was a top end load the was well past the m852 168 load of 2550 fps.
when the load was used in ar10's( yep they had so many armalite's you could not buy a mag in the usa for a while) and sr25's. there were no issues. when they reactivated m14's they started having issues in the summer heat. bent op rods. so instead of using the ammo where it was intended, they watered it down. first time. then they went over seas and played in the desert and again the m14 was the problem child...more bent op rods. again instead of using where intended, it was watered down again. each time it was watered down it lost some value, less velocity/less accuracy. in the end the politician approach was lets go make a nice generic load that works ok everywhere, rather than an excellent BOLT RIFLE sniper load. so now we have 175 that does a mere 2570 or so.....barely faster tan the 168 load.
while hard to get early data, shooters said it was close to 2700 fps with the 175. a hot load for sure.

Interesting. I didn't know the US ever fielded the AR10 in 7.62NATO, especially back during VN. Some foreign countries did. I'd be interested if there was a procurement at that time.

[pdshooter2]

YOU have completely ignored that the m118lr IS NOT A COMPETITION ROUND.
it is a bulk loaded mil sniper round shot in a collection of rifles a lot less than a ftr rifle.
it actually EXCEEDS the mil requirement with recorded shots inxcess of 1500 yards

I mention this just for comparison sake not debate:

Looking at the above posted velocity for a 175 SMK and consider that for 1,000 yard competition. Most of us in FTR are shooting a 200g (with G1 .640 BC) around 2650-2,700 MV. We typically see 1,500 FPS at 1,000 yard target. A lot less elevation, time in the air and windage than a 175.

That was a good bullet for the time but ballistic technology has come a long way since then. To end on a positive note for the 175. They shoot absolutely fantastic at 600 yards and IMO will score just as well as a 200g with a good shooter in FTR .308 class.

[charlie b]

I don't think he's ignoring anything, just making a comparison. And a rather complimentary one at that.

[Blue Avenger]

3 pages of this BS
pack of preschoolers arguing over the best candy.
try a new topic that wasn't dead before it started.

[charlie b]

That sums up 99.9% of all forum posts.

And everyone believes they are the 0.1% exception.

[South Prairie jim]

Sounds about right, I try to stay with personal experience and leave the Banter and useless Blather to the internet expert.
sorry if I derailed the thread.