Factory loaded .308 match ammo for long range

[Dave Hoback]

M118 is surplus Gov'ment target ammo.
You will be able to find it at some of the larger gunshows. I have a lot of it left over from when I was shooting NRA Hi-Power.
I haven't found a .308 barrel yet that didn't like it.
But I have to tell you, it will struggle at anything past 800 yds. You will need more bullet weight for that.

Can find it online with a bit of looking. https://www.308ammo.com/M118SB-p/m118sb.htm

[yoda4x4]

Can find it online with a bit of looking. https://www.308ammo.com/M118SB-p/m118sb.htm

Just curious... Can you use this for hunting?

David

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[jkv45]

Can find it online with a bit of looking. https://www.308ammo.com/M118SB-p/m118sb.htm

Interesting that you found that.

If you click on "7.62 x 51/.308" ammo on their site - nothing comes up on the page. Nothing comes up with a search on ammoseek.com either (I've checked).

What is the difference between M118 SB (what they have listed) and M118 LR?

[charlie b]

https://www.snipercentral.com/history-m118-ammunition/

Everything you needed to know :)

[jkv45]

https://www.snipercentral.com/history-m118-ammunition/

Everything you needed to know :)

Thanks Charlie.

I didn't realize there were so many versions and changes over the years.

[charlie b]

I had heard something about it years ago when I was still paying attention. Just had to find it.

[Robinhood]

I would recommend LC 15 M118 LR specifically over Fed 175 GMM. There is a significant difference. Check the runout on FGMM and you will see a huge difference compared to the M118. Difference of 1.25 moa compared to .75 for the M118, at least the few thousand I have run through my rifles over the recent years. Powder consistency is much better on the M118 too.

I have found the powder to be within .02grains and I never had issues with RO. I currently reload using the recipe fro the FGMM/M118 in weight sorted cases if I want that. 41.75 grains of 4064 is usually on the mark.

Somewhere near 43.5 of 4064 is a sweet spot in many rifles. Very close recipes with Varget and R15 too.

[pdshooter2]

and the statement is not true...a poor bullet does not get better with a tuner

[pdshooter2]

but the m118lr was a great load that was slowly down loaded to work in the m14( designed for bolt guns).
the 316 load is a good general load but not great like the lr load was.
reloader 15 smk 175
try a berger 175 instead or even a lapua 185

M118 Special Ball Long Range Mk316 Mod 0 is the FGGM 175smk.

LC Match case(designed by Federal), IMR 4064 41.7xx grains, FGMM 210M primer.

There were many iterations of the M118 with many powders and even a 173 closed tip bullet made by LC.

[jkv45]

Looks like I will get a chance to see how my .308 Model 10 does at extended range. The local club that has a 1200 yd range is hosting a long range class, and 1200 will be available.

I picked up some FGMM 175gr and Lapua Scenar-L 175gr to test and zero before the class.

I did see some M118LR for sale...$65 a box! Can't go there...

Is it unrealistic to expect to group 2-3 MOA at 1200 with my set-up if conditions are favorable and I do my part?

[charlie b]

From what I can tell they will be close to subsonic at 1200yd so not sure what to expect.

Should be well under 2MOA at 1000.

[wbm]

_.

[yobuck]

Go with the idea of simply enjoying the day.
You will come back with more knowledge that you had before you went, and thats a plus.
You will find that higher BC in and of itself has no real advantage over less BC with higher velocity.
And thats true of all cartridges at the longer distances.
Velocity rules till the distance becomes too great, at which point more velocity is needed, not more BC.

[hamiltonkiler]

3moa at 1200 is 36” as I’m sure you know. I sure hope so.

Some where between 800-1000yds it goes transonic so it’s a crap shoot.


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[jkv45]

Go with the idea of simply enjoying the day.
You will come back with more knowledge that you had before you went, and thats a plus.
You will find that higher BC in and of itself has no real advantage over less BC with higher velocity.
And thats true of all cartridges at the longer distances.
Velocity rules till the distance becomes too great, at which point more velocity is needed, not more BC.

I will.

This is a basic long range class, so it's all about learning.

I want to be as prepared as possible to maximize accuracy with my set-up, but I do realize it has limitations - plus I'm learning - so mistakes will be made.

I plan to relax, learn, and have fun. No expectations of amazing results.

[yobuck]

I will.

This is a basic long range class, so it's all about learning.

I want to be as prepared as possible to maximize accuracy with my set-up, but I do realize it has limitations - plus I'm learning - so mistakes will be made.

I plan to relax, learn, and have fun. No expectations of amazing results.

If you can shoot well at 100, you will also shoot well at the longer distances at least in proportion.
The difference will be the conditions encountered, such as wind and mirage, which play a larger roll as the distance increases and the bullet loses velocity.
I would by all means take a spotting scope along.
Spend as much time as possible sitting behind the shooters and watching the vapor trail of the bullets.
You will learn much as a result of doing that. Best to keep the power at a lower setting so the image is clearer.
You will soon learn which the better cartridges are simply by watching.

[jkv45]

If you can shoot well at 100, you will also shoot well at the longer distances at least in proportion.
The difference will be the conditions encountered, such as wind and mirage, which play a larger roll as the distance increases and the bullet loses velocity.
I would by all means take a spotting scope along.
Spend as much time as possible sitting behind the shooters and watching the vapor trail of the bullets.
You will learn much as a result of doing that. Best to keep the power at a lower setting so the image is clearer.
You will soon learn which the better cartridges are simply by watching.

Until recently, 100 yards/meters was the farthest I'd shot.

I did another class recently with a maximum distance of 600 yards, and had 1st round hits on all 7 plates out to 600 yards with 168gr GMM. I believe the steel ranged from 12 x 12" at 350 to 24 x 24" at 600. Had my best hits at 600 after some tweaking along the way.

Made some minor adjustments from the ballistic chart I was using, but it all fell into place pretty well. Wind was mostly light.

Very enjoyable day, and I learned a lot, but it also showed me I've got a lot to learn...

[darkker]

Doesn't FGMM 168 run out of gas by 800yds or so, due to its BC?

Can you get out past that with the 168 SMK and hand loads at higher velocity?

Here's the truth with actual details, that no one has told you. The reason the 168 was deemed not ideal for 1k shooting came from a cold year at Camp Perry, and how the bullet is designed.

The 168gr SMK was built with a steep 13° tail angle. This steep trail angle allows you to get a higher(pronounced sexier) BC, and not have a very long overall bullet length. Unfortunately this also crates an odd center-of-gravity Vs Center-of-pressure combination. Going way, WAY back to Dr. McCoy's ballistic work, it's been known that such a steep trail angle will cause turbulence in the transonic region. Combine that with a CG Vs CP issue and it's all but a guarantee that the bullet tumbles. As the boys discovered at a cold Camp Perry year, that ultimate distance varies with weather. Which was also not a new conveyor art the time.... Anyway, the military boys didn't like getting shown-up by the civies, and the military paid Sierra a pile of money to "fix the problem". The "fix" was a new bullet known as the 175 SMK. Which curiously enough has the same 9° tail angle that McCoy proved is dead stable crossing transonic region; not unlike the 173gr used in the 30-06.

With the latest set of construction updates from Sierra, it's possible they revamped the 168 tail angle. But until I could measure it, I wouldn't believe it

Cheers

[yobuck]

Here's the truth with actual details, that no one has told you. The reason the 168 was deemed not ideal for 1k shooting came from a cold year at Camp Perry, and how the bullet is designed.

The 168gr SMK was built with a steep 13° tail angle. This steep trail angle allows you to get a higher(pronounced sexier) BC, and not have a very long overall bullet length. Unfortunately this also crates an odd center-of-gravity Vs Center-of-pressure combination. Going way, WAY back to Dr. McCoy's ballistic work, it's been known that such a steep trail angle will cause turbulence in the transonic region. Combine that with a CG Vs CP issue and it's all but a guarantee that the bullet tumbles. As the boys discovered at a cold Camp Perry year, that ultimate distance varies with weather. Which was also not a new conveyor art the time.... Anyway, the military boys didn't like getting shown-up by the civies, and the military paid Sierra a pile of money to "fix the problem". The "fix" was a new bullet known as the 175 SMK. Which curiously enough has the same 9° tail angle that McCoy proved is dead stable crossing transonic region; not unlike the 173gr used in the 30-06.

With the latest set of construction updates from Sierra, it's possible they revamped the 168 tail angle. But until I could measure it, I wouldn't believe it

Cheers

But meanwhile, i suppose one could just touch the paint in order to find out? lol

[wbm]

No "wet paint" warning so yeah.

[jkv45]

A question for those that are familiar with M118LR -


Is the current Winchester "M118LR Long Range, 175gr Sierra Match King BTHP Service Grade" a match grade ammo equal to or better than Federal GMM?

I've found it at a slightly more reasonable price, but comments across the board say it's not match grade.

Is there a different M118LR that is match grade?

[hamiltonkiler]

A question for those that are familiar with M118LR -


Is the current Winchester "M118LR Long Range, 175gr Sierra Match King BTHP Service Grade" a match grade ammo equal to or better than Federal GMM?

I've found it at a slightly more reasonable price, but comments across the board say it's not match grade.

Is there a different M118LR that is match grade?

It’s hotter.

Like black hills vs fgmm vs normas

Black hills ammo is hotter in my little testing with the .223
I can only assume the same for the .308


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[wbm]

A question for those that are familiar with M118LR

Sent you a PM.

[jkv45]

An update -

I searched around and found 4 different 175gr .308 factory loads to test, and got out this weekend for a basic 100yd session to see what happens.

I tried Federal GMM 175, Lapua 175 Scenar-L, Berger 175, and Hornady 178.

Lapua shot the best 5-shot groups at 3/4" and 1". Federal and Berger both did about the same at 1 1/8".

The surprise was Hornady. Both 5-shot groups had flyers. I initially took the blame, but the second target had a similar flyer, with the first target at 2" and the second at 1 3/4". I had high hopes for the Hornady, as it has the highest bc of all that I tested. The Lapua has the lowest.

None of the groups were beautiful “cloverleafs”, with the best (Lapua) group being a mostly vertical string with all shots touching. The Federal would be the runner-up.

Not a definitive test, but good enough to get me started. By no means an expert rifle shooter at this point.

I have my LR class near the end of the month, with 600, 1000, and 1200yd targets. I'd be more confident going out to 800 with my set-up. I'm not expecting to hammer them in there at 1000, and depending on the weather/temp, it looks most will be transitioning to subsonic right about 1200.

We'll see. I don't expect this to be easy.

EDIT: Rifle is a Model 10 FCP HS Precision, 24" heavy barrel, with a SWFA 12x scope. Shooting prone off of front and rear bags.

[hamiltonkiler]

Great looking set up.
Bed the front of the action and recoil lug and give it another spin.

I wouldn’t dismiss the 168gn smks.

If your shooting take a note book.
The great thing with that scope is you can dial or shoot off the reticle. Your spotter should be able to call your shots if your paying for a class.

Cheers and good luck! Those 3/4-1” groups are great and fine.


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